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I haven't read up on this man at all, so I'm curious about this part in the second quote:

 

He delivered viable fetuses and murdered them by severing the spinal cord with scissors. This resulted in the death of one woman and seven babies.

 

If the fetuses had already been delivered, how could that in any way affect the mother?

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I'm going to guess as he was not licensed, something went wrong during the "abortion" and he couldn't handle it.

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I haven't read up on this man at all, so I'm curious about this part in the second quote:

 

 

 

If the fetuses had already been delivered, how could that in any way affect the mother?

Speaking as a midwife, there are a lot of ways delivery can go wrong. There is a reason why women are more likely to die carrying to term than if they get an abortion. Even post-delivery there can be issues that can cause death. Even if you do nothing wrong, you can still lose a patient.

 

This guy was doing a lot wrong.

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I haven't read up on this man at all, so I'm curious about this part in the second quote:

 

 

 

If the fetuses had already been delivered, how could that in any way affect the mother?

Someone uncertified administered too much anesthetic to the woman.

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Someone uncertified administered too much anesthetic to the woman.

Ah, thank you all. I was just curious if there was a known answer, now I know.

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I'm completely pro-choice. I believe abortion is a woman's right and that only she should make the decision; no one else has the right to make the decision. It's HER body. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. I merely believe a woman should have the right to choose.

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I thought I'd put this here. It's the difference between condemning people and helping them. Going to the root of the issue and helping to fix it, rather than just tossing people in jail.

 

Article

 

A Government Program That Works?

The Dallas Police Department has a program that tries to help women who sell sex. It cuts down on crime and saves lots of money.

 

—By Erika Eichelberger

 

Tamara* started selling sex at age 20. "You just kinda fall into it," she says. "I thought it would be exciting. Living off the land. Footloose and fancy-free." Then came the rapes and the beatings by customers, the felony drug charge, and all the time in Dallas County Jail.

 

One night in December 2010, while working a truck stop along Interstate 45, Tamara tried to sell to an undercover cop. He arrested her, put her in a car, and drove her out to an empty lot behind a McDonald's near where I-45 hits I-20.

 

A makeshift encampment was set up there, with dozens of bundled-up people milling around or sitting in folding chairs at card tables. Women were pulling old, oversize men's coats over After Five cocktail dresses, or sweats over naked legs and pleather stilettos. The cop told Tamara she could either talk to the people there and get herself into a recovery program or she could go to jail. She chose talking.

 

The middle-of-the-night stakeout is part of PDI New Life, a Dallas Police Department program aimed at shifting prostitutes out of jail, off the streets, and into rehab, counseling, and job training. Once a month, cops pick up women who they either know to be prostitutes or who are soliciting sex and bring them to the lot behind McDonald's, where PDI offers women 45 days of live-in treatment, including trauma, substance abuse, and mental-health counseling, as well as help navigating social services, finding housing, and securing a job.

 

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The potholed asphalt lot is staffed by the sheriff's and police departments, the health department, nurses, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, and counselors for substance abuse, trauma, and domestic violence, all of whom assess the women right there that night, and determine what services they need. There's also a mobile municipal court for handling low-level misdemeanors, like when a known prostitute leans into or flags down a car, which is a city ordinance violation. For higher-level misdemeanors, like actually offering sex for money, the women are still transported to jail, but can enter the program on pretrial release.

 

"It's like planning a wedding every month," says Louis Felini, the Dallas PD sergeant who cofounded the program in 2007 with Renee Breazeale, a senior manager at a substance abuse and mental-health treatment facility in Dallas.

 

There are church ladies camped out here, too. They bring a hot meal. "No one prays over them or anything like that," says Breazeale, who is now PDI's executive director. "The point is to help them begin the exit process and get services that night."

 

It all started because of 9/11. The police department was investigating truck stops as possible staging areas for terrorist attacks involving massive 16-wheelers instead of airplanes. But instead of terrorists they discovered 1,000 prostitutes servicing the 2,000 trucks that cycled through every day.

 

"We did what we do well," Felini says. "We arrested everybody." But soon, officers realized women were trading sex for survival needs, many of them were trafficked, and some were so damaged they "couldn't do anything else if [they] wanted to." The oldest was 64. "We thought they'd die" if the police department didn't do something about the vicious cycle, Felini says.

 

It’s not that easy to convince the women to play along. Many are not enchanted by the idea of being arrested and pushed into treatment. For that, there are ex-prostitutes to help. Jammie**, who heads up the outreach, has nine felony convictions and used to do sex work to support a $500-a-day crack habit. "We interact with them on a level that other women don't have the ability to do," she says. "I'll say, 'What is so great about getting calluses on your knees that you don't want to leave behind?'"

 

Tamara has oiled, straightened bangs and a serious forehead. She takes big pauses as she talks. "I figured me doing something different couldn't a hurt, couldn't a made my world any worser," she says. There's something to that. Studies of prostitutes aren't done all that often, but research over the past decade shows that that prostitutes have mortality rates that are 60 to 100 times that of other women. They are 40 times more likely to be murdered. Three-quarters have PTSD. Almost half have attempted suicide. Most are addicts, with histories of abuse and mental illness.

"I'll say, 'What is so great about getting calluses on your knees that you don't want to leave behind?'"

 

Still, locking people up for selling sex is more common than treatment. Felini says Dallas arrests several thousand people for street prostitution each year. In almost all states, prostitution is a misdemeanor, punishable by anywhere from a few days to two years in jail. Texas is one of the only states where the offense is a felony (on the third strike). There are some 350 women in the state prison system who were convicted of selling sex. Nationally, those who sell sex are locked up at two to three times the rate of those who buy sex, according to the Center for Battered Women Legal Services at Sanctuary for Families in New York City.

 

"It's nuts that we've got this many prostitutes in prison, people that we're not afraid of, but we're just mad at," Texas state Sen. John Whitmire said last year. "By locking them up, we're not fixing the problem—we're just spending a lot of money incarcerating them, warehousing them."

 

It costs $18,538 to house a convict in a Texas state prison for a year, according to the Texas Legislative Budget Board. It costs $4,300 a year to put her in rehab.

 

But the Dallas program does more than just save money. Within three years of PDI's start date, there was a nearly 60 percent drop in crime in truck stop areas in the city. In 2011, 48 percent of those who completed inpatient treatment were not rearrested for prostitution. In early February, Whitmire introduced a bill that would make programs like PDI mandatory for all Texas counties with more than 200,000 residents.

 

And now copycat diversion programs are cropping up fast around the country. Phoenix and Columbus have diversion programs like the one in Dallas. Corpus Christi, Texas, is considering one. Last year, New York City police commissioner Ray Kelley met with prostitutes and trafficked women to talk about fairer enforcement actions, and in Queens, Judge Fernando Camacho created a diversion court, which links prostitutes to counseling and social services instead of sentencing them to jail time. Dallas created two prostitution courts in the past five years, and Houston is considering one.

 

Diversion-type programs can be traced to the 1830s, when probation programs were born in Boston courts, but the modern version of diversion for sex workers began in the '60s and '70s. Advocates at the national level say that while the programs have been around for a long time, they've taken off in the past few years. It's "a trend that's really building," says Michael Shively of the research firm Abt Associates, who has spent years gathering data on the "demand" side of prostitution. He says those initial diversion programs "have served as models, and now people all over the place are standing up these little things."

 

Tamara is living with her mom right now, taking care of her baby, a girl. She has applied for jobs at American Airlines and 7-11, but it's kind of hard "because of my background," she says. "I just wanna work. Do normal things."

 

She's wearing dangly snowflake earrings the day I talk to her. "It is what it is," she says. "I'm really all right."

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So there's a church group at our campus today that have posted big anti-abortion posters, most of which (of course) are presenting false information again.

 

And when I say posters I mean more like movable billboards, its just...ugh. If the one person who I saw from the church group wasn't a high school kid I had half a mind to share my own arguments...but I don't think they would have worked. (public college in the US in case anyone is wondering.)

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*snip*

 

I see how that's helpful for the women who have no other option. But what about the ones who truly enjoy sex work? They do exist.

 

@brairtrainer: Why can't you talk to the high school kid? Maybe they're just spitting out what their parents/church/whatever fed them. You might be able to open their mind.

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The pictures were drawing a bad emotion out of me and while I can better hide that over the internet (because I can read what I type) there I'm more likely to actually cause harm to what I'm saying due to my temper. I pretty much took the chance to walk away and later I may go and try and talk, but my nerves have been frayed for other reasons lately. :/

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Ahh, that's understandable. You handled that a lot more maturely than I would have...

 

Maybe they'll just leave eventually.

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I hope so :/ it doesn't help that I'm sitting here wondering if it is somehow connected to the day of dialogue, but thats more of something for the gay rights thread...

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I saw this yesterday but didn't think about posting it until now.

 

3d-printing gives blind parents a chance to feel baby before it's born

 

While I understand the original intents of this (help docs diagnosis problems and what the title says), I just know pro-birthers will try to use this somehow to push their agenda (e.g. 'parents should 'feel' their babies before they can abort it!' type thing).

 

Not to mention...I find it a bit creepy tbh....

 

Edit: and after reading a few of the comments, I am saddened by the fact that some of the pro-birther's there are already calling for just that....

 

Edit by kiffren: I fixed your link for you. Feel free to delete this 'edit by kiffren' if you want. ^^

Edited by kiffren

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Unfortunately, there will always be people who, once they get a conviction of something as RIGHT, will then push that on others, to convert them, rather than respect each person's individual right to believe how they wish.

 

This goes for religion, politics, social issues, etc. Whole families will ostracize one of their own for deviating just a little from proscribed ideals.

 

No wonder the aliens refuse to come down. They are up there, watching, passing the popcorn, and shaking their heads at humanity's stupidity. tongue.gif

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I saw this yesterday but didn't think about posting it until now.

 

3d-printing gives blind parents a chance to feel baby before it's born

 

While I understand the original intents of this (help docs diagnosis problems and what the title says), I just know pro-birthers will try to use this somehow to push their agenda (e.g. 'parents should 'feel' their babies before they can abort it!' type thing).

 

Not to mention...I find it a bit creepy tbh....

 

Edit: and after reading a few of the comments, I am saddened by the fact that some of the pro-birther's there are already calling for just that....

I'm banging my head on the desk after reading a few of these comments, and yet I can't stop scrolling. D: Why is everyone talking about abortion there instead of, you know, the article? It's kind of weird that this is the first thing that comes to their mind. (I personally think the technology is pretty amazing. ohmy.gif) Also, I don't think this would convince most not to get an abortion. They've generally thought about it a lot, usually it was a tough decision as well. This isn't going to change their mind so easily.

Edited by Orlageddon

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Unfortunately, there will always be people who, once they get a conviction of something as RIGHT, will then push that on others, to convert them, rather than respect each person's individual right to believe how they wish.

 

This goes for religion, politics, social issues, etc. Whole families will ostracize one of their own for deviating just a little from proscribed ideals.

 

No wonder the aliens refuse to come down. They are up there, watching, passing the popcorn, and shaking their heads at humanity's stupidity. tongue.gif

Very true. I think it's also an inability to put oneself in another's shoes or really think about the consequences of your actions.

 

I see how that's helpful for the women who have no other option. But what about the ones who truly enjoy sex work? They do exist.

 

Probably not ghosting Texas truck stops along the highway.

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Ok, I will "come out" so to speak.

 

I grew up strict Orthodox Catholic. Abortion was a big NO NO, instant hell ticket. No grey, black and white only.

 

I had a 5 year old child, and my marriage had ended. I was in a relationship with a guy, who was a big mistake, but at the time, I was in love. I got pregnant. I was living on welfare, and in section 8 housing and things were tough.

 

I love children. I wanted to have a whole bunch. My boyfriend loved my son, thought he was great. But when I told him I was pregnant, he freaked out. Told me he couldn't handle being a father (news to me after 2 years). I was in such a bad place mentally, I allowed him to influence me to get an abortion, even tho every fiber of my being was against it. It was a horrible experience for me.

 

He had threatened to leave me if I didn't, and I was looking at having to care for a baby, when I could barely afford to care for the one I had. So, he paid for it, and I got it. He did eventually dump me 3 years later.

 

Now, I think about that baby all the time. What might have been. I do support a woman's choice, because I was there, I've walked those shoes, and you just can't understand that choice unless you've been there. However, I do NOT recommend it, as I will live with it for the rest of my life, and I would not want that for anyone.

 

So, I am pro-choice, but beg you to try to find other options... Has nothing to do with religion or society....but your own mental health for the rest of your life. If you DO decide to have one tho...I'll drive you there myself. That's my opinion.

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It is a highly individual matter. For some having an abortion is what saves their mental health. Not all women are even capable of having feelings towards their born children, giving birth and then having to give the child away is generally a much heavier burden than never giving birth... What your ex did - persuading you into it - is however wrong, and nothing else.

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Riverwillows:

 

Amen to that. And have I mentioned recently that you're truly awsome and I wish we had more folks like you in the world?

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*highfives Riverwillows*

 

I have the solution to the pro-life movement, guys- order about 5,000,000 Riverwillows clones and send them to befriend all the pro-lifers, slowly winning them over. Then, we send a task force of 500 Willows to infiltrate the Catholic Church...

 

Anyway, Riverwillows, I'm sorry your boyfriend forced you to do that.

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Riverwillow, I'm sorry that happened to you. Unfortunately, pro-choice is supposed to be about CHOICE and yours was rather taken from you. I'm sorry. sad.gif But I really respect that you've managed to make a great life for yourself. You're a good mom and a good person.

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Like Riverwillowas, I didn't have the choice as much as some people did.

 

I was twelve, the doctors told me that if the baby survived, it would be a miracle. I had just started attending a very Christian school, and was terrified to be a "murderer" terrified that I would go to hell. So I got scared into carrying, which was not smart.

 

So I put what was best for ME, put my fears of Hell, and my selfish desire to not to go there, etc ahead of what was best for the child. It was the worst decision I ever made, and if I believed Hell was a real place now, I would feel that I totally deserved it, for forcing life on that baby for the few days he lived.

 

No one deserves that.

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There's a story from El Salvador about a woman suffering from renal failure because abortion is completely banned in the country, even to save the life of the mother. The fetus is anencephalic and unlikely to survive the birth for more than a few hours at most. If the mother survives she faces long-term expensive medical treatments that she cannot afford.

 

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/04/...aving-abortion/

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There's a story from El Salvador about a woman suffering from renal failure because abortion is completely banned in the country, even to save the life of the mother. The fetus is anencephalic and unlikely to survive the birth for more than a few hours at most. If the mother survives she faces long-term expensive medical treatments that she cannot afford.

 

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/04/...aving-abortion/

*shakes head* That is horrible! Honestly something like should be dealt with as soon as its known about. She should have been allowed to abort before international groups had to get involved. dry.gif

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