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Thank you this is a wonderful way of looking at it and I wish more people thought like that smile.gif

What she said smile.gif

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Like some others here, I am against abortion. Apparently I am unlike some others with this view in that I reserve the right of each person to make this decision for themselves.

 

I am just as against trying to force someone to be a mother as I am personally against abortion.

 

I never expected to want an abortion and had the good luck to never be in a position where my opinion on this was challenged. I can't say with certainty that there was no situation in which I would have changed my mind, because I was never in that type of challenging situation.

 

I can't see where forcing a woman to have an unwanted child is good for either of them. The child can be born into a home where it is unwanted, be mistreated, spend a life feeling unworthy, be adopted into a home that isn't necessarily better, or wind up in the foster system, which again is not necessarily good for the child. Just being alive is not necessarily a good thing.

 

It is none of my business what other women choose to do in their own particular situation, which is not mine.

*applauds* Very well said.

 

Incidently this particular view is not uncommon among large numbers of 'pro-choice' people. Many of them, for personal (and/or religious) reasons would not have an abortion themselves, but they defend the right of other women to have that choice available.

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KageSora, that's nuts. Who honesty would believe that? Having an organ removed is a major surgery. blink.gif

 

Anyway, I'd like to give them a braindump on what it ACTUALLY is.

It's clearly a case of having only been exposed to the anti-abortion propaganda that all abortions cut open women and are major surgeries in which they hack up babies and pull them out in parts and stuff.

 

That's why education on the subject is so important, and why we need to explain it to people so much more--so they realize that this isn't the case.

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Unfortunately a lot of places won't even give you decent, accute, sex education....

Yep. And then they wonder why abortion rates are so high.

 

Maybe if people actually understood the failure rates of BC, the various methods of BC, that using more than one form of BC is important, that a guy is lying if he says a condom can't fit him, that he needs to wear one because he doesn't want to father a child he can't support (and he's scum if he abandons the mother and child because he couldn't own up to his fatherhood), understood STDs/STIs better, understood exactly how expensive it is and time consuming and difficult it is to raise a kid...

 

People would be more careful, and thus having less abortions. sleep.gif'

 

EDUCATION is the key to reducing abortions, not making them illegal.

 

Also education on what abortion is...

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Yep.  And then they wonder why abortion rates are so high.

 

Maybe if people actually understood the failure rates of BC, the various methods of BC, that using more than one form of BC is important, that a guy is lying if he says a condom can't fit him, that he needs to wear one because he doesn't want to father a child he can't support (and he's scum if he abandons the mother and child because he couldn't own up to his fatherhood), understood STDs/STIs better, understood exactly how expensive it is and time consuming and difficult it is to raise a kid...

 

People would be more careful, and thus having less abortions.  sleep.gif'

 

EDUCATION is the key to reducing abortions, not making them illegal.

 

Also education on what abortion is...

 

Yes, I definitely agree. When you hash it out as simple as this, it makes sense that the main issue is education. Maybe they're just 'fff' about explaining the "birds and the bees" to younger people or people in general, but they can either be uncomfortable and do it correctly, or be uncomfortable, skimp on stuff, and worry about abortion rates rising.

I do think we need to start with the people who are currently alive; making sure they understand everything that there is to know in every step of both parenting and abortion, not simply going to the deep and saying "oh well let's make abortion illegal! It's %100 foolproof!" and it's not even, lmao, because we still have things like the blackmarket, trafficking, etc.

 

I was in Economics the other day, and apparently if the blackmarket was actually stopped, our (the American) economy would just.. well, it would NOT be good.

It's somewhat offtopic, but just to paint the theme that here, things being made illegal is never the end of them.

 

I know a lot of pro-life people ( and we never bicker about this issue. We're all very lax and understanding of both sides, but merely believe in our own side ) and the reason most of them are pro-life is because they're imagining the.. stereotypical scenario: Girl has a boyfriend. Girl gets pregnant because there was no protection involved. Girl doesn't want the child because it wasn't intentional. Girl goes out and gets an abortion.

Now, that does happen, but that's not the whole count of abortion procedures. In addition, some of them that I know are pro-life because of religion. Once, a priest said to me:

"If [The Blessed Virgin]Mary had an abortion and never had Jesus, where would we be?"
I felt kind of.. meh about that, but to suddenly go "Oh yeah you're totally right, man. I'm pro-life. IN THAT CASE." would be very wrong, because instead of thinking on the rights of all women, I would suddenly have to veer off course and believe that she had no rights of her own to make that decision in his scenario.

 

I'm in family of 8 siblings. Half are older than me, half are younger than me. We're all aged in increments of two years. I practically had to raise the younger half, ( parents work all day ) but I keep an eye on the older half because though they're academically excellent, they don't always think on serious levels. They like to be everything but serious. >-> If you want to hear about what it's like to raise children, oooooomg. And I only raised them about.. %89 of the time. I can tell you a very close total of how much it cost just in their diaper years, and how much more it costs now with the ( American ) economy. This is the kind of stuff sex education classes should be teaching in addition.

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I'm just going to second what KageSora said because he said it so well. I'd like to add, making birth control widely available is part of the key as well. The point of keeping abortion legal is not to make as many abortions as possible (as a lot of pro-lifers seem to think?). The point is to keep a last resort for the cases of rape, birth control failure, medical reasons, what have you. (Not exclusively for those reasons, mind you, as the woman has the right to do what she wants with her body. It's just that in those cases, abortion is often the only option.)

 

So yes, I believe that we should work towards reducing the number of abortions, but through education and making BC more accessible. That way, there would be fewer abortions done, but those in need would still have the option available to them, in a safe environment.

 

I'll just join in the applause for raindear for being considerate and not shoving her own beliefs down people's throats. Thank you. smile.gif

 

(Okay, I'm just pretty much repeating what has been said in this thread. I just wanted to finally say my opinion on the subject. Maybe I should be posting this on one of those extremist pro-life boards instead.)

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Like some others here, I am against abortion. Apparently I am unlike some others with this view in that I reserve the right of each person to make this decision for themselves.

 

I am just as against trying to force someone to be a mother as I am personally against abortion.

 

I never expected to want an abortion and had the good luck to never be in a position where my opinion on this was challenged. I can't say with certainty that there was no situation in which I would have changed my mind, because I was never in that type of challenging situation.

 

I can't see where forcing a woman to have an unwanted child is good for either of them. The child can be born into a home where it is unwanted, be mistreated, spend a life feeling unworthy, be adopted into a home that isn't necessarily better, or wind up in the foster system, which again is not necessarily good for the child. Just being alive is not necessarily a good thing.

 

It is none of my business what other women choose to do in their own particular situation, which is not mine.

I love you. In a totally platonic, non-creepy way. biggrin.gif

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Like some others here, I am against abortion. Apparently I am unlike some others with this view in that I reserve the right of each person to make this decision for themselves.

I'm against slavery. I think it's wrong to own slaves. I would never own a slave. But I think you should have the right to decide whether or not to purchase humans like meat for yourself.

 

 

If abortion is wrong, isn't it just... wrong? I'm not trying to disparage your position, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around it.

Edited by philpot123

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This isn't about slavery.

 

Abortion is a grey area, just like slavery was back then. There were two sides, and some neutral people. Everybody chose for themselves.

 

 

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This isn't about slavery.

 

Abortion is a grey area, just like slavery was back then. There were two sides, and some neutral people. Everybody chose for themselves.

And some people fought for the abolition of an evil industry, despite the fact that some people supported it and others were complacent.

 

So you really think slavery was a grey area back then? It wasn't absolutely wrong?

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And some people fought for the abolition of an evil industry, despite the fact that some people supported it and others were complacent.

 

So you really think slavery was a grey area back then? It wasn't absolutely wrong?

Slavery is using an independent being against their will. Fetuses are not independent beings, as they are still surviving off the mother's body.

 

Interesting thought though... the fetus is using an independent being against their will... (in the case of an unwanted pregnancy, anyway.)

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So it really is like slavery. Hmm. Actually, philpot, that is a pretty good example.

 

And what I was saying is that I am absolutely against slavery, but back in the day, there were two sides, and some people weren't sure.

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Slavery is using an independent being against their will. Fetuses are not independent beings, as they are still surviving off the mother's body.

 

Interesting thought though... the fetus is using an independent being against their will... (in the case of an unwanted pregnancy, anyway.)

That's exactly what I was thinking--it's forcing a woman to give over use of her body to a clump of cells and she has no say in the matter.

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I'm against slavery. I think it's wrong to own slaves. I would never own a slave. But I think you should have the right to decide whether or not to purchase humans like meat for yourself.

OK. I have decided to buy you. Kindly package yourself up and get over here. Because I have the right to decide to do that...

 

And YOU have no say in it. MY decision.

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I'm honestly surprised to see this thread xd.png

But of course I have to post my opinion.

Mainly pro-choicer's on this page, I'm seeing, so I'm going to put my little pro-life rant up.

 

Abortion is wrong. In my opinion, once a woman chooses to have sex, it is not her choice any more. It is NOT "her" body. Though on the outside it might be, someone else's body is on the inside. This part of the rant is for consensual sex only, by the way. Don't try to tell me by prohibiting abortion I am taking away your rights. You CHOSE to have sex.

Please look at every living creature and see sex is meant for reproduction. In some cases, including our own species, it is meant for other purposes, pleasure, power, territory, etc. BUT the main effect of sex is reproduction.

In that, you willingly took the risk to possibly bring a child on this earth. With pills, condoms, implantations, there is still a risk. So don't say I am taking away your rights by trying to defend someone else's (the HUMAN in you!)

Saying that, in order to even consider prohibiting, our sexual education at early ages has GOT to increase! I took one class in 8th grade. It lasted 2 days, an hour session total. In highschool we lightly touched sex ed in health. How can you possibly expect people to understand the risks and responsibilities of sex with that little to go off of? There's not just babies and stds, there's emotions, oxytocin level increases, there's natural confusion. Personally, I don't see sex as something to take lightly, but if you don't agree, you should still educate yourself and wage the risks before engaging.

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I'm honestly surprised to see this thread xd.png

But of course I have to post my opinion.

Mainly pro-choicer's on this page, I'm seeing, so I'm going to put my little pro-life rant up.

 

Abortion is wrong. In my opinion, once a woman chooses to have sex, it is not her choice any more. It is NOT "her" body. Though on the outside it might be, someone else's body is on the inside. This part of the rant is for consensual sex only, by the way. Don't try to tell me by prohibiting abortion I am taking away your rights. You CHOSE to have sex.

Please look at every living creature and see sex is meant for reproduction. In some cases, including our own species, it is meant for other purposes, pleasure, power, territory, etc. BUT the main effect of sex is reproduction.

In that, you willingly took the risk to possibly bring a child on this earth. With pills, condoms, implantations, there is still a risk. So don't say I am taking away your rights by trying to defend someone else's (the HUMAN in you!)

Saying that, in order to even consider prohibiting, our sexual education at early ages has GOT to increase! I took one class in 8th grade. It lasted 2 days, an hour session total. In highschool we lightly touched sex ed in health. How can you possibly expect people to understand the risks and responsibilities of sex with that little to go off of? There's not just babies and stds, there's emotions, oxytocin level increases, there's natural confusion. Personally, I don't see sex as something to take lightly, but if you don't agree, you should still educate yourself and wage the risks before engaging.

So what about when the woman doesn't choose to have sex but get pregnant anyway? What about women who have been married for years but wouldn't be able to support a pregancy (genetic reasons, or really any other reason at all)? Are they supposed to never have sex with their partners, ever?

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So what about when the woman doesn't choose to have sex but get pregnant anyway? What about women who have been married for years but wouldn't be able to support a pregancy (genetic reasons, or really any other reason at all)? Are they supposed to never have sex with their partners, ever?

As I said, my post isn't about rape, it's another concern. And, as I said, reproduction is the main but not only reason for sex. It's not about sex, it's about the outcome of sex and consequences.

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Abortion is wrong. In my opinion, once a woman chooses to have sex, it is not her choice any more. It is NOT "her" body. Though on the outside it might be, someone else's body is on the inside. This part of the rant is for consensual sex only, by the way. Don't try to tell me by prohibiting abortion I am taking away your rights. You CHOSE to have sex.

Sex, for humans, is not just for reproduction, otherwise it wouldn't feel good.

 

And no...just because a have a fetus growing in me doesn't mean I lose control over my body. It's like an apartment complex: the landlord has control over who she allows to stay in an apartment and can evict someone for any reasonable reason. Ergo, a woman can 'evict' that fetus if she feels it will do her more harm than good (mentally or physically, especially).

 

Saying that, in order to even consider prohibiting, our sexual education at early ages has GOT to increase! I took one class in 8th grade. It lasted 2 days, an hour session total. In highschool we lightly touched sex ed in health. How can you possibly expect people to understand the risks and responsibilities of sex with that little to go off of? There's not just babies and stds, there's emotions, oxytocin level increases, there's natural confusion. Personally, I don't see sex as something to take lightly, but if you don't agree, you should still educate yourself and wage the risks before engaging.

 

This is the only part of your post I agree with, though you should add 'fix our racist, homophobic, greedy adoption/foster care system' to that. Speaking of which...did you know that only 2-3% of babies that are put into the system are ever adopted...and that chances of being adopted decrease by a lot the older they get? Let's not forget the suicide and attempted suicide rates for those poor kids 'stuck in the system'. I'm just talking about the US here as well....

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I'm honestly surprised to see this thread XD

But of course I have to post my opinion.

Mainly pro-choicer's on this page, I'm seeing, so I'm going to put my little pro-life rant up.

 

Abortion is wrong. In my opinion, once a woman chooses to have sex, it is not her choice any more. It is NOT "her" body. Though on the outside it might be, someone else's body is on the inside. This part of the rant is for consensual sex only, by the way. Don't try to tell me by prohibiting abortion I am taking away your rights. You CHOSE to have sex.

Please look at every living creature and see sex is meant for reproduction. In some cases, including our own species, it is meant for other purposes, pleasure, power, territory, etc. BUT the main effect of sex is reproduction.

In that, you willingly took the risk to possibly bring a child on this earth. With pills, condoms, implantations, there is still a risk. So don't say I am taking away your rights by trying to defend someone else's (the HUMAN in you!)

Saying that, in order to even consider prohibiting, our sexual education at early ages has GOT to increase! I took one class in 8th grade. It lasted 2 days, an hour session total. In highschool we lightly touched sex ed in health. How can you possibly expect people to understand the risks and responsibilities of sex with that little to go off of? There's not just babies and stds, there's emotions, oxytocin level increases, there's natural confusion. Personally, I don't see sex as something to take lightly, but if you don't agree, you should still educate yourself and wage the risks before engaging.

I just have a small question.

 

If the pair willingly had sex, actually wanted a baby and did indeed get pregnant, but the baby has some form of mutation or disorder that would practically make life painful or hard for the baby? Would you approve or still disapprove of abortion then?

 

I, myself, certainly would have an abortion if that were the case :/ I couldn't stand to see it in that situation and would feel very selfish.

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Sex, for humans, is not just for reproduction, otherwise it wouldn't feel good.

 

And no...just because a have a fetus growing in me doesn't mean I lose control over my body. It's like an apartment complex: the landlord has control over who she allows to stay in an apartment and can evict someone for any reasonable reason. Ergo, a woman can 'evict' that fetus if she feels it will do her more harm than good (mentally or physically, especially).

 

 

 

This is the only part of your post I agree with, though you should add 'fix our racist, homophobic, greedy adoption/foster care system' to that. Speaking of which...did you know that only 2-3% of babies that are put into the system are ever adopted...and that chances of being adopted decrease by a lot the older they get? Let's not forget the suicide and attempted suicide rates for those poor kids 'stuck in the system'. I'm just talking about the US here as well....

So you're saying because you screwed up is a good reason to evict a tenant that does exactly what they're supposed to do? That's how I see an abortion for convenience. That's not reasonable either. If the landlord signed the apartment over to the tenant and the tenant did exactly what the contract said... see what I'm getting at? Having sex and getting pregnant is natural. And if you'd reread my post, I did say that there is more than reproduction to sex, it's just the most-common outcome looking at all living creatures. Some species have sex for pleasure. Dolphins rape other dolphins to show authority.

Now, if there is a problem with the mother/fetus that could kill the mother, that is understandable. If it's a financial issue, there's adoption to consider. There are many couples out there dying to have a child but can't, while there are women who've had multiple abortions because the condom broke or they forgot the pill.

As I finished writing that I read the rest of your post. While I agree that our system is screwed up and it needs some serious reform, not every child is miserable, and if I were a fetus, and I had a choice, I would try life, before being aborted. I think life should be given a chance.

I don't think destroying life fixes the problems a child may experience.

Honestly I just don't think it's the mother's choice after sex. Because now there are 2 hearts. 2 brains.

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Eluna I have to say real quick thank you for posting here, especially since more users are pro-choice. I have to say I agree with Slaskia and you with that last part of your post. I wish more pro-lifers were like you.

 

That said, I used to be a pro-lifer like you until I started doing some digging on my own. Including the fact that when pregencies go wrong the fetus/babies life and the mother's life may be in danger or non-existant.

 

One example is Ectopic pregnancy. The fetus does not make it to the womb and instead implants in the fallopian tube. This part of the reproductive tract is so small that as the child grows it bursts, killing the infant and endangering the life of the mother. Abortion right now is the only successful treatment for the condition. Any attempts to move the fetus to the uterus have failed.

 

I wish to talk more in depth with you about it, not because I want to change your mind, but because I know where you are coming from.

 

~brairtrainer

 

Edit: Adoption is an option but right now the adoption system is not very good. I know we have one person on the forum who works with kids in the system everyday who want to kill themselves or wish they had been aborted. Too many age out and too many don't get adopted or go to abusive homes. For me adoption, unless I know the couple, will never be an option for me. I don't even know if I can help out the situation by adopting. There is history in my family for major mental illness, and that may disqualify me.

Edited by brairtrainer

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Sometimes I get the urge to record the usernames of pro-lifers in case I ever need an organ donation or for some crazy reason I need to hook my body up to another person's body in order to live. I just want to see how many would turn me down because they value their lifestyle and body over my life.

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I just have a small question.

 

If the pair willingly had sex, actually wanted a baby and did indeed get pregnant, but the baby has some form of mutation or disorder that would practically make life painful or hard for the baby? Would you approve or still disapprove of abortion then?

 

I, myself, certainly would have an abortion if that were the case :/ I couldn't stand to see it in that situation and would feel very selfish.

Hmmm... it depends on what kind of defect. I don't think mental diseases/disorders are a good reason. If the child would be constantly in pain, then yes. But if it were something like a missing limb, downs, a missing sense, no.

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If the reason you're against abortion is because you consider a fetus a person, then the circumstances of how the fetus was formed shouldn't matter. If a woman is raped it doesn't make her fetus less of a baby than if she had consensual sex. When you say that "well, you had sex, now you have to deal with the consequences" it's more censorkip.gif-shaming than about the child. Also, I agree with an opinion that's been voiced in this thread before-abortion IS taking responsibility. It's admitting that you can't give the child the life it deserves.

 

Anti-abortion legislation isn't justified just because people think women shouldn't have sex for any reason other than reproduction. We can't legislate morals.

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