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Ah, I see where I went wrong- I asked my mom about it and she clarified for me. You're right, brain dead is legally dead; I mistook my earlier statement because of the stories she would tell me some times about the patients they would keep alive at her hospital. They apparently kept one patient "alive" for about a week because the family couldn't cope. Though, from what she's told me now, that doesn't happen often at all and usually the brain dead patients are kept alive for organ harvesting.

 

My mistake.

Don't worry about it smile.gif I didn't realise the difference until I started on ICU, because of how 'brain dead' is commonly used for someone who is in a vegatitive state, and it wasn't until I had my first medically brain-dead patient that I had the difference explained to me.

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idk. I agree with luckynicole in everything there.

 

But people should be more careful during sex -- you're gonna get pregnant [probably]. Even if it is unprotected, take some pills in stead of having an abortion... BEFORE you're found pregnant.

 

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*picks jaw up from the floor*

 

I say the two facedness says it all, that or the lawers don't understand how much presenting their side like that will cause a backlash on their clients. huh.gif

I just hope that this will make more people realize that it's not about unborn kids - it's about control.

 

And to make it even more apparent: New Mexico Bill Would Imprison Rape Victims Who Receive Abortions.

 

I find this part especially important:

 

In addition to burdening victims of sexual assault, Brown’s bill also reveals some hypocrisy in the anti-abortion community. While anti-choice advocates maintain that a fetus should be afforded the full rights of personhood, charging abortion as “tampering with evidence” effectively turns the fetus into an object.

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Incidental note on that

UPDATE: 12:25 p.m. -- Brown said in a statement Thursday that she introduced the bill with the goal of punishing the person who commits incest or rape and then procures or facilitates an abortion to destroy the evidence of the crime.

 

“New Mexico needs to strengthen its laws to deter sex offenders,” said Brown. “By adding this law in New Mexico, we can help to protect women across our state.”

From here.

 

Now if that is the case I can potentially see what she was trying to do here. I belive the intent is probably to protect teenage girls who are raped by fathers that then force them to have abortion in order to conceal their crimes, by making the action of forcing someone into having an abortion illegal. Just for a lawmaker it's worded very, very badly.

 

Actually given some of the interesting legal cock-ups I've read about in the States recently (like the one in Texas where banning gay marriage was likely to make a large number of heterosexual marriages illegal too) I'm beginning to wonder wether or not some of these Republican 'lawmakers' actually have basic English qualifications. Because they certainly don't seem to be able to draw up proposals that are specific enough to do what they want, and only what they want.

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Incidental note on that

UPDATE: 12:25 p.m. -- Brown said in a statement Thursday that she introduced the bill with the goal of punishing the person who commits incest or rape and then procures or facilitates an abortion to destroy the evidence of the crime.

 

“New Mexico needs to strengthen its laws to deter sex offenders,” said Brown. “By adding this law in New Mexico, we can help to protect women across our state.”

From here.

 

Now if that is the case I can potentially see what she was trying to do here. I belive the intent is probably to protect teenage girls who are raped by fathers that then force them to have abortion in order to conceal their crimes, by making the action of forcing someone into having an abortion illegal. Just for a lawmaker it's worded very, very badly.

I can see somewhat where she comes from too, but there are ways which are much less damaging for the victim. A tissue sample is as much of a proof as a baby.

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Incidental note on that

UPDATE: 12:25 p.m. -- Brown said in a statement Thursday that she introduced the bill with the goal of punishing the person who commits incest or rape and then procures or facilitates an abortion to destroy the evidence of the crime.

 

“New Mexico needs to strengthen its laws to deter sex offenders,” said Brown. “By adding this law in New Mexico, we can help to protect women across our state.”

From here.

 

Now if that is the case I can potentially see what she was trying to do here. I belive the intent is probably to protect teenage girls who are raped by fathers that then force them to have abortion in order to conceal their crimes, by making the action of forcing someone into having an abortion illegal. Just for a lawmaker it's worded very, very badly.

 

Actually given some of the interesting legal cock-ups I've read about in the States recently (like the one in Texas where banning gay marriage was likely to make a large number of heterosexual marriages illegal too) I'm beginning to wonder wether or not some of these Republican 'lawmakers' actually have basic English qualifications. Because they certainly don't seem to be able to draw up proposals that are specific enough to do what they want, and only what they want.

As NM is my state, thanks for pointing it out. I need to go read up on it! ;~;

 

But people should be more careful during sex -- you're gonna get pregnant [probably]. Even if it is unprotected, take some pills in stead of having an abortion... BEFORE you're found pregnant.

 

So as long as we don't verify that a women is pregnant, non-contraceptive birth control is just dandy, but as soon as the pregnancy is verified it's suddenly not okay? o.o

 

~

 

Yeah, I saw that Catholic lawsuit thing. There's not even a facepalm big enough for that. I hope it pushes people to call them out on it and perhaps force some kind of statement from them. =\

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Sooo sending out that link on the hospital to everyone on my email.

 

Seen this? The fact that this site exists about my country, makes me sad. The New Mexico bill made the list.

 

http://www.dayswithoutagoprapemention.com/

 

Here's an article from Daily Kos since they get more credibility. I'm pretty sure I've also seen a Huff's article floating around.

 

ETA: found it!

 

And that link of yours is great for some quick proof finding.

Edited by PointOfOrigin

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So as long as we don't verify that a women is pregnant, non-contraceptive birth control is just dandy, but as soon as the pregnancy is verified it's suddenly not okay? o.o

Well, then it's Schrodinger's fetus: she is both pregnant and not-pregnant until verified, so it's only half wrong. Once verified, she's 100% pregnant, so it's 100% abortion!

 

That was not serious, in case that's not clear.

 

I was going to share more opinion, but it keeps sounding awful grumpy, but let's suffice to say that I am very, very pro-choice. I am also pro-baked goods. I mean, since I'm sharing.

Edited by vintageandroid

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The NM law just makes me sad. Let me just say I'm proud to call myself pro-choice now despite the fact my mom thinks I'm ignorant on the subject and just young and naive dry.gif .

 

Anyways my heart goes out to all people in NM. If this passes even more children and women will be thrust into situations that would make for a difficult life. Honestly republican's have killed the horse they don't need to kill the foal too (meaning, they've talked this point to death, they don't need to pass hurtfull laws as well in the guise of 'helping') mad.gif

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On that note, if there is anyone else around here from NM, please email those involved to say no to this!

 

Email: http://www.nmlegis.gov/lcs/committeedispla...itteeCode=HCPAC (where the bill will be at) and cath@cathrynnbrown.com (who suggested the addition of abortion to the bill)

 

If it helps, here are some thoughts for the emails:

http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research...talimpact.shtml Women of rape already face more problems without factoring in the hardships of pregnancy, especially the hardships of an unwanted pregnancy from rape. 61% of rape victims fear they will get pregnant from the rape - forcing them to keep the pregnancy is harming them.

http://www.hsc.unt.edu/departments/patholo...e/FAQ/FAQ.cfm#8 DNA testing can be done early.

A better solution would be to support and encourage research for technologies and methods for DNA extraction on aborted fetuses more reliable.

Numerous studies show that abortion happens whether it is illegal or legal. As rapists are already breaking the law, it's possible they would peruse illegal (and harmful) abortion options.

The Bill makes it harder for victims of rape who want an abortion to get one.

Laws need to work for victims, not against them.

 

~

 

Several of my friends and I have already contacted our reps to express our displeasure. I really hope this doesn't gain any ground. D|

 

Well, then it's Schrodinger's fetus: she is both pregnant and not-pregnant until verified, so it's only half wrong. Once verified, she's 100% pregnant, so it's 100% abortion!

 

Thanks for the giggle. XD

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The thought that they truly believe that they have the right to demand this much control over another person is terrifying

 

What I found really sad, also, was that after Rep Brown received a deluge of emails and phone calls telling her off for her proposal, she whined and defended herself by claiming that she was only trying to protect rape and incest victims whose rapists force them to have abortions. If that was the case, she wouldn't have included victims who WANT abortions in her addition. If that was the case, she would withdraw her suggestion and offer an apology. This is something clearly meant to control women's bodies and take away their autonomy under the guise of being "helpful" towards victims.

 

I'm glad your daughter has been able to have the support of one such as yourself and is now doing well in life. <3

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Killing the infant won't lessen the pain of what happened to you. It'll just kill a developing human that's done nothing wrong. Meanwhile the sick monster who DOES deserve to die gets to sit around in prison watching TV, playing sports, and getting better medical care then the average poor person.

 

Seems kinda backwards to me.

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I am wondering WHY my discussion was moved to this topic? I do NOT consider my discussion to be a topic of abortion but rather GOVERNMENT RIGHTS.

 

I intentionally did not post it in this topic because I do not want to discuss the rights or wrongs of abortion but rather the rights of the government to tell you what you must do to your own body. Can my discussion please be moved back?

 

Thank you for your consideration.

 

 

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I merged because the bill was already being discussed here and if not here it would have gone in American Politics.

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Killing the infant won't lessen the pain of what happened to you. It'll just kill a developing human that's done nothing wrong. Meanwhile the sick monster who DOES deserve to die gets to sit around in prison watching TV, playing sports, and getting better medical care then the average poor person.

 

Seems kinda backwards to me.

Killing the fetus does help most (not all, I will admit) rape victims who end up pregnant. Would you like to be stuck with a constant reminder of the trauma you suffered growing inside your body for nine months? Something you didn't even want in your body in the first place? While some can cope with that, it's psychologically damaging for those who can't.

 

Now take that and add tokophobia to it. I personally have it, and I would honestly rather kill myself than be forced to carry a pregnancy to term. I have nightmares about pregnancy and even that is enough to send me into hysterics when I wake up.

Edited by St. Jimmy

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I merged because the bill was already being discussed here and if not here it would have gone in American Politics.

Can you please move it to American Politics then as I am not wanting to disucss the moral issues of abortion but rather the governments rights to control me.

 

Thank you!

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Killing the fetus does help most (not all, I will admit) rape victims who end up pregnant. Would you like to be stuck with a constant reminder of the trauma you suffered growing inside your body for nine months? Something you didn't even want in your body in the first place? While some can cope with that, it's psychologically damaging for those who can't.

 

Now take that and add tokophobia to it. I personally have it, and I would honestly rather kill myself than be forced to carry a pregnancy to term. I have nightmares about pregnancy and even that is enough to send me into hysterics when I wake up.

simply quoting because.. this is basically word for word what my input would have been. rape victims should not be forced to carry the fetus to term. it's a reminder each and every day that they were taken advantage of, forced to conceive because their bodies are sexually mature, and then forced to carry the child to term due to the people around them screaming 'what about the baby?!'

 

what about the mother?

In my opinion, the living come before the pre-living. Take care of what is already here and has value then a lump of rapidly dividing cells, which, a fetus is until, again, my opinion, it is able to be removed from the mother and sustain its own life with minimal help.

 

There's also the case that the child may be born into living conditions less then friendly. If a child's going to be born just to be hated, abused, starve to death, etc etc, then I'm sorry.. but no. You may say adoption. Not everyone knows how to go through the adoption process. Not everyone has the means to do so. If you're in that poor of conditions, I doubt you have money for a doctor to even be able to find out. The very birth of the child may through you into even more financial problems. Some families wouldnt be supportive. etc etc etc.

 

there are so many conditions that affect this. ultimately, i normally stand by this. If you dont agree with abortions, dont want abortions, etc, then that's fine for you. Dont get one. But dont start trying to control what the majority does simply because you believe something is wrong. If the woman wants / needs an abortion, it is her choice, her uterus, ultimately her body.

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Killing the infant won't lessen the pain of what happened to you. It'll just kill a developing human that's done nothing wrong. Meanwhile the sick monster who DOES deserve to die gets to sit around in prison watching TV, playing sports, and getting better medical care then the average poor person.

 

Seems kinda backwards to me.

This is a little misleading to the discussion, as an infant is not what is removed from a woman's body during an abortion. Abortions are performed on embryos and fetuses. Killing an infant is infanticide. I agree killing an infant in front of a woman, especially after forcing her to carry the fetus the full nine months, would probably further traumatize the woman. However, that doesn't have to do abortion. ^^

 

Prison really isn't a walk in the park (although the fact that we deny so many people out of prison the necessities and refer to them as parasites on society is sick) , but I think we had another discussion around here debating that. I might have to poke around and see if I can find that. (EDIT: Ah, I was thinking of the death penalty thread. Perhaps a prison system topic might be of interest? Stuff like on if it works, if it doesn't, how to reform it, what the purpose of prison is, etc.)

 

But the prison point is kind of moot, anyway, considering our awful incarceration rate for rapists and the fact that police don't really take rape or prosecuting it seriously. (Example)

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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This is a little misleading to the discussion, as an infant is not what is removed from a woman's body during an abortion. Abortions are performed on embryos and fetuses. Killing an infant is infanticide. I agree killing an infant in front of a woman, especially after forcing her to carry the fetus the full nine months, would probably further traumatize the woman. However, that doesn't have to do abortion. ^^

 

Prison really isn't a walk in the park (although the fact that we deny so many people out of prison the necessities and refer to them as parasites on society is sick) , but I think we had another discussion around here debating that. I might have to poke around and see if I can find that.

 

But the prison point is kind of moot, anyway, considering our awful incarceration rate for rapists and the fact that police don't really take rape or prosecuting it seriously. (Example)

About the prison bit: prison isn't actually that great. There are fights in prisons and sometimes the guards misuse their power. Women's prisons are even worse and most women will not be provided with proper medical care or may be sexually harassed by the guards. It is only recently that women's prisons have had female guards and decent medical care.

 

I'll see if I can find some articles on the subject.

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I have contacted my congressmen, representatives, senator and govenor and sent them this message...

 

I am writing you regarding the NM House bill (206) which was introduced on Wed 24, Jan in New Mexico by Rep. Cathrynn Brown ®. I want you to know that should anything even remotely close to this bill be presented in any state which I reside in I will do everything in my legal power to ensure that not only does the bill not make it past the introduction but that whoever is associated as a supporter of such a bill never gets re-elected. I am not stating this as a threat but as an impassioned plea to you to please be aware of these types of issues and to represent me in the fact that what I do with my body is not the government’s right to decide.

Thank you for your time and continued service.

 

I just want to make sure that they know that should they consider anything as atrocious as this representative did I will not take it lightly.

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I just want to drop in and give a big THIS to what Sock, Wandering4Ever, and St. Jimmy said. That's what my opinions have been on this topic for a long time, but I was never able to really express it well so I didn't comment in this topic before.

 

And St. Jimmy, regarding tokophobia, I'm like that too. My fears cover pretty much all medical situations, not just pregnancy, but I have mini-panic attacks just considering the thought of being pregnant. Visiting doctors and being tested for months would be a horrible strain on me, not to mention childbirth. It's likely that I would be so panicked during labor that serious complications would develop and endanger both my life and the child's.

 

I wouldn't want anyone else to suffer that. I think that it is NOT the government's place to decide what a women does with her body, especially if pregnancy would be traumatic for her. Quoting Wandering4Ever; "the living come before the pre-living."

 

And anyway, women would get abortions even if it was completely illegal. Either they'd go to someone who may or may not be legit, or they would do it themselves- a better alternative is making it legal and then providing those who want it with safer treatment.

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