Abortion

[Kestra15]

Haha I'm pretty aware that a good number of people find my views to be "extreme", but I suppose I see it as I know what I can handle, and I value being healthy and a good mother to my existing child more than bring an unwanted child into this world that I'll resent at the risk of my life.

In that case shouldn't abortion be your last choice of birth control and not the first?

[danis]

In that case shouldn't abortion be your last choice of birth control and not the first?

Did I say that it was my first and only method of avoiding pregnancy? And what difference does it make?

[CrossingStar]

Did I say that it was my first and only method of avoiding pregnancy? And what difference does it make?

What difference does it make? I think Kestra was trying to say that it's a bit foolish to just go have sex because 'If I get pregnant, abortion will take care of it!' Not saying that's what you do, but I think that's what Kestra was trying to say.

[danis]

What difference does it make? I think Kestra was trying to say that it's a bit foolish to just go have sex because 'If I get pregnant, abortion will take care of it!' Not saying that's what you do, but I think that's what Kestra was trying to say.

It's foolish to be sure that you'd have an abortion? I'm pretty sure there's no person in the history of ever who had sex for the sole intent of getting an abortion. They have abortions because they had sex and don't want to be a parent.

[TikindiDragon]

It's foolish to be sure that you'd have an abortion? I'm pretty sure there's no person in the history of ever who had sex for the sole intent of getting an abortion. They have abortions because they had sex and don't want to be a parent.

I'm pretty sure you're missing the point. Wether that's accidental, or wether you are being deliberately obtuse I'm not sure.

 

The point, quite simply, was that pretty much all of us feel that using abortion as the sole form of birth-control is foolish. If someone is that dead set against pregnancy (parenthood) that they should, if they have any sense, be using some form of birth control. Abortion should be available as a fall-back position should that fail, and not seen as the primary way of preventing yourself from becoming a parent.

[danis]

I'm pretty sure you're missing the point. Wether that's accidental, or wether you are being deliberately obtuse I'm not sure.

 

The point, quite simply, was that pretty much all of us feel that using abortion as the sole form of birth-control is foolish. If someone is that dead set against pregnancy (parenthood) that they should, if they have any sense, be using some form of birth control. Abortion should be available as a fall-back position should that fail, and not seen as the primary way of preventing yourself from becoming a parent.

At what point did I imply that abortion was my sole form of birth control? CrossingStar's post mentioned nothing of foolish = only using abortion. Maybe there was an implication that I missed, but all I read was "it's a bit foolish to just go have sex because 'If I get pregnant, abortion will take care of it!'". And Kestra's post implies that I said I only use abortion and nothing else.

 

Edited December 16, 2012 by danis

[TikindiDragon]

At what point did I imply that abortion was my sole form of birth control? Kestra and CrossingStar's post mentioned nothing of foolish = only using abortion. Maybe there was an implication that I missed, but all I read was "it's a bit foolish to just go have sex because 'If I get pregnant, abortion will take care of it!'".

I think you missed an implication. Although I'd say Kestra's last post made it fairly clear what he was talking about, so that wasn't exactly *implied*.

 

It also must be noted that, certainly the way I read it, your original post did sound a *lot* like you didn't use birth control and instead had an abortion every time you got pregnant. And it was *that* attitude that we all feel is foolish.

 

I'm quite glad you cleared up that that isn't how things are working for you, but it doesn't mean the initial observation of "Abortion as only means of preventing parenthood = foolish" any less valid.

[PointOfOrigin]

At what point did I imply that abortion was my sole form of birth control? CrossingStar's post mentioned nothing of foolish = only using abortion. Maybe there was an implication that I missed, but all I read was "it's a bit foolish to just go have sex because 'If I get pregnant, abortion will take care of it!'". And Kestra's post implies that I said I only use abortion and nothing else.

You haven't implied that it's your only form of birth control and some people have jumped too soon.

 

Did I say that it was my first and only method of avoiding pregnancy? And what difference does it make?

 

I imagine that lot's off people would take offense with your 2nd sentence.

[danis]

I think you missed an implication. Although I'd say Kestra's last post made it fairly clear what he was talking about, so that wasn't exactly *implied*.

 

It also must be noted that, certainly the way I read it, your original post did sound a *lot* like you didn't use birth control and instead had an abortion every time you got pregnant. And it was *that* attitude that we all feel is foolish.

 

I'm quite glad you cleared up that that isn't how things are working for you, but it doesn't mean the initial observation of "Abortion as only means of preventing parenthood = foolish" any less valid.

I say what I mean without implications, so I suppose I assume other's do the same. My bad. It's very presumptuous to think I don't use birth control because I say I will have an abortion if I get pregnant.

[TikindiDragon]

I say what I mean without implications, so I suppose I assume other's do the same. My bad. It's very presumptuous to think I don't use birth control because I say I will have an abortion if I get pregnant.

Not really, given your wording. I'd probably have assumed the same thing if you'd used those words in that order in person.

[Kestra15]

Did I say that it was my first and only method of avoiding pregnancy? And what difference does it make?

The language and attitude in your post made it sound like you were using it as a primary/secondary option rather than a final option.

 

It makes a difference because those who use abortion as a first-choice contraceptive are lazy and foolish, create more work for others for their own pleasure and through laxity, and are gambling with their own health. Abortion is an intervention and like all interventions carries a risk with it, and continued abortion exposes you to those risks time and again. It is an inefficient, time-consuming method which, given the advice post-abortion is to not have sex for a certain amount of time, makes it counter-intuitive to use it as a method of birth control for those who wish to enjoy sex without the risk of pregnancy.

[danis]

The language and attitude in your post made it sound like you were using it as a primary/secondary option rather than a final option.

 

It makes a difference because those who use abortion as a first-choice contraceptive are lazy and foolish, create more work for others for their own pleasure and through laxity, and are gambling with their own health. Abortion is an intervention and like all interventions carries a risk with it, and continued abortion exposes you to those risks time and again. It is an inefficient, time-consuming method which, given the advice post-abortion is to not have sex for a certain amount of time, makes it counter-intuitive to use it as a method of birth control for those who wish to enjoy sex without the risk of pregnancy.

It is secondary, but considering the primary is pretty efficient, I hardly see it as "lazy or foolish". Have I had an abortion? Yes. Will I have another if I end up pregnant? Yes.

[Kestra15]

It is secondary, but considering the primary is pretty efficient, I hardly see it as "lazy or foolish". Have I had an abortion? Yes. Will I have another if I end up pregnant? Yes.

Which is fine if you are using it as a last-resort to other practical methods that work. It is when people use it as their main effective 'contraceptive' that 'lazy and foolish' occur, as stated above. So, since you don't use it as your main form of avoiding parenthood, then it doesn't apply to you.

[skinst]

How I lost faith in the Pro-Life Movement

 

The comments are worth a read as well.

Edited January 4, 2013 by skinst

[Fuzzbucket]

How I lost faith in the Pro-Life Movement

 

The comments are worth a read as well.

Excellent link - many thanks. There are quite a few people I shall be passing it on to

[Brite]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShMf1X6PqCk

 

 

For those who think that brain activity or heart beat indicates personhood. In or out of the womb.

 

This child has no idea of his existance. All he can do is consume and pass waste. Would it be murder to kill him or abort him if he were still in his mother's womb? A person's brain is very important for survival when growing.

 

Note: This child is no longer with us, he died after the age of 2.

Edited January 7, 2013 by GhostChilli

[TikindiDragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShMf1X6PqCk

 

 

For those who think that brain activity or heart beat indicates personhood. In or out of the womb.

 

This child has no idea of his existance. All he can do is consume and pass waste. Would it be murder to kill him or abort him if he were still in his mother's womb? A person's brain is very important for survival when growing.

 

Note: This child is no longer with us, he died after the age of 2.

Actually, having watched that, I'd say the child should have been humanely put to sleep. Which, no, I would not consider murder.

[hazeh]

Actually, having watched that, I'd say the child should have been humanely put to sleep. Which, no, I would not consider murder.

I agree. Same reason I support euthanasia for humans who are brain dead in the hospital.

[Kestra15]

I agree. Same reason I support euthanasia for humans who are brain dead in the hospital.

Some who is brain dead is dead - we don't keep them alive. You might be referring to permanent vegetative state.

[hazeh]

Some who is brain dead is dead - we don't keep them alive. You might be referring to permanent vegetative state.

Maybe not in Europe, but in America a family can opt to keep a brain dead patient on a ventilator and all those other gismos just for the sake of keeping their heart from stopping.

[St. Jimmy]

Maybe not in Europe, but in America a family can opt to keep a brain dead patient on a ventilator and all those other gismos just for the sake of keeping their heart from stopping.

It's quite disturbing that someone would want to keep a dead body's organs working just to pretend they're still alive...

[Kestra15]

Maybe not in Europe, but in America a family can opt to keep a brain dead patient on a ventilator and all those other gismos just for the sake of keeping their heart from stopping.

Are you sure? Someone who is brain-dead is dead, and regardless of country death is death and thus doctors will not continue to keep them alive, any more than someone whose heart has stopped will be kept on ventilators. It would be unethical and pointless, and no matter how much the family want it doctors regardless of country are trained to call it death and turn off the machines even if it is against the family's wishes.

 

'Brain dead' or 'brain death' is a very specific medical term which is often confused with things like 'permenant/persistant vegatative state' or 'locked-in syndrome' or the most severe of brain damage/comas, and that *is* when a family can ask for a patient to be kept alive on life support. But someone who is brain-dead will not be left alive on life-support, as they are sadly as dead as the next corpse at that point. As well as being highly immoral and unethical, I'm certain it is illegal regardless of country to keep the body on life-support for more than a couple of hours to allow for family to visit the body. It would be prohibitively expensive and also endanger the lives of those who actually need those resources.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_vegetative_state

Edited January 9, 2013 by Kestra15

[hazeh]

Ah, I see where I went wrong- I asked my mom about it and she clarified for me. You're right, brain dead is legally dead; I mistook my earlier statement because of the stories she would tell me some times about the patients they would keep alive at her hospital. They apparently kept one patient "alive" for about a week because the family couldn't cope. Though, from what she's told me now, that doesn't happen often at all and usually the brain dead patients are kept alive for organ harvesting.

 

My mistake.

[luckynicole659]

In my religion God says he 'knows us' while we are in the womb, which would imply that we have already been given a soul.

 

However thats just my interpretation. If my interpretation is wrong, then I find no problem with abortion because to me, it really is just a fetus and is not its own being untill it is born.

 

I would never tell somebody to get an abortion, but I also wouldn't feel bad if they did, and I wouldn't tell them it was wrong either.

 

It should not be used as a birth control though. That is obvious. People need to be more protective during sex.

 

I do not think abortion should be illegal because then backalley abortions will be on the rise and then many of the women will die.

 

I am also in favor of stem cell research from fetal tissue.

[PointOfOrigin]

In my religion God says he 'knows us' while we are in the womb, which would imply that we have already been given a soul.

 

However thats just my interpretation. If my interpretation is wrong, then I find no problem with abortion because to me, it really is just a fetus and is not its own being untill it is born.

 

I would never tell somebody to get an abortion, but I also wouldn't feel bad if they did, and I wouldn't tell them it was wrong either.

 

It should not be used as a birth control though. That is obvious. People need to be more protective during sex.

 

I do not think abortion should be illegal because then backalley abortions will be on the rise and then many of the women will die.

 

I am also in favor of stem cell research from fetal tissue.

There should be more reasonable people like you.