Abortion

[danis]

I went back a while, and I didn't see this posted, so I thought I might offer it up. Food for thought.

 

Trigger warnings for suicide, drug abuse and then some

 

http://choosechoice.tumblr.com/post/32312585554

[aniqueen]

Oh wow...this is an interesting topic....I am pro-choice, always have been always will be. I am a woman, with a 9 year old autistic son who supports abortion. It is my body, my choice my life, period. And no one is going to tell me what to do with it. That is all I will say, in my opinion, on this topic. Thank you for listening and have a nice day.

[Brite]

Oh wow...this is an interesting topic....I am pro-choice, always have been always will be. I am a woman, with a 9 year old autistic son who supports abortion. It is my body, my choice my life, period. And no one is going to tell me what to do with it. That is all I will say, in my opinion, on this topic. Thank you for listening and have a nice day.

This entirely

 

I went back a while, and I didn't see this posted, so I thought I might offer it up. Food for thought.

 

Trigger warnings for suicide, drug abuse and then some

 

http://choosechoice.tumblr.com/post/32312585554

 

Interesting, I didn't know there were other sites that shared abortion stories that were pro-choice

Edited December 1, 2012 by GhostChilli

[AngelKitty]

Here's some tangentially-related-to-this-topic humor, that I got off of the " My Dad Says" twitter:

 

"I like babies, just saying they live inside a host body and feed off it. That's a parasite...Yes, I could raise a tape worm and love it."

 

Since tapeworms and other parasites have been mentioned here in previous discussions.

[CrossingStar]

I went back a while, and I didn't see this posted, so I thought I might offer it up. Food for thought.

 

Trigger warnings for suicide, drug abuse and then some

 

http://choosechoice.tumblr.com/post/32312585554

This poor woman. I can't believe it! How sad that she had to suffer the loss of both her son and her husband because of an awful disease.

[Brite]

Here's some tangentially-related-to-this-topic humor, that I got off of the " My Dad Says" twitter:

 

 

 

Since tapeworms and other parasites have been mentioned here in previous discussions.

"Raise a tapeworm and love it"

 

Until the tape worm in you starves your body and kills you if it hasn't invaded your major organs already..

[CrossingStar]

Until the tape worm in you starves your body and kills you if it hasn't invaded your major organs already..

I thought tapeworms just stayed in your gut or something. Do they actually invade your other organs? It seems a bit counter intuitive, seeing as they (like all other parasites) need our bodies to survive. Invading our other organs would destroy that.

 

Besides that, I totally agree.

[Shienvien]

I thought tapeworms will puncture your organs if they get too big or something?

The ones which are generally thought of when tapeworms are mentioned (the big ones which grow up to several meters long) do not do it - they just sit in your intestines and absorb nutrients you need in your stead (so you might essentially 'starve' to death because of them, but won't have your internal organs physically damaged).

 

There, however, do exist smaller parasitic worms (especially certain nematodes) which do burrow elsewhere in your body, and can kill you through internal bleeding and damage-related organ failure.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Shienvien

[BatPopsicle]

First off, I want to be aware that nothing I say should be construed as an attack. These are merely my opinions, based on medicine, science, and years working for Child Protective Services, as well as an other options counselor.

 

(It's sad that I feel like this tag is now necessary.)

 

 

 

Please do not take anything I say as intending to demean your experiences.

 

 

 

Just as a counterpoint, my father, my brother and myself lost my mother because she refused to have an abortion. What was supposed to be my twin turned into a parasitic mass that eventually killed her. She decided to go through with the pregnancy anyway, and I have to admit, I hate her for it, a lot of the time.

 

 

 

In my experience, most people have abortions as in for the best interest for the child.

 

 

 

Storytime!

 

My daughter is a rape baby. She's in school now, and struggling with this fact already. She's already asked me multiple times why I didn't abort her, and worries over whether I can really love her. That's not good for a child.

 

Neither is a rape pregnancy easy on a woman. I managed to get through, barely. Pregnancy was hell for me, even without cracked ribs, broken bones, post-traumatic flashbacks, and constant nightmares.

 

A very dear friend of mine also got pregnant through a rape. She was staunchly pro-life. She however, could not deal with the "thing" growing inside of her. She couldn't deal with the "evil thing" feeding off of her. She attempted suicide twice before she succeeded -- not because of the trauma of the rape, she had been handling it wonderfully, by all accounts, but because of the fetus inside her. She couldn't bring herself to abort, but she couldn't live with it inside of her either.

 

10 million women attempt suicide every year. 4 million because of pregnancy. In the US alone, 14,000 women committed suicide because of their pregnancies in 2009. Another 3,000 were inconclusive with suicide suspected.

 

 

 

If they can't afford a baby, how are they going to afford to put a baby up for adoption?

 

 

 

Not according to the kids in foster care. 1 in 3 will tell a social worker that they wish they had been aborted. 16% of those under 12 will attempt to commit suicide and fail. another 9% will succeed. Of those that fail, 86% will attempt again, even if removed from the foster family they were with at the time. In foster kids 12-18, 82% will attempt suicide before aging out, of those who do not die prior to reaching 18. in 94% of these cases, they will state that they wish they had never been born, or wish they had been aborted.

 

(United States Child Protective Services Inter-State Study of Child Welfare in Foster Care, 2010)

 

 

 

The point that they're making, is that when abortion is illegal in the united states, infanticide goes up 25% and child abuse goes up 46%, and that's cases that are reported.

 

 

 

How many people who have gotten abortions have you seen then? I mean, you're basing this on the easy way out based on what you've seen, so I think it is a valid question. Are you involved in healthcare or childcare at all?

 

 

 

*raises hand*

 

I do. And again, see my statistics above. Also to add to that --Of children in chronic children's wards, or those with congenital diseases, 87% wish that they'd never been born. Of those, 2-6% under 12 attempt suicide every year for the second or more time. 14-20% attempt it for the first time.

 

 

 

A person, however, needs human contact and affection. See, Harlow's Monkeys.

 

 

 

And....they afford this how? These are the current median costs.

 

Average cost for pre-natal doctor's visits: 1,862-3,543

Ultrasound: $100-400 for the cheap ones. From $500 up if complications are involved.

Pre-natal tests: $1,100-$2,000 assuming standard tests only and no reason for more expensive ones.

Vaginal delivery without complication: $6,200 -$7,500

Vaginal delivery with complication: $8,200 - $10,500

C-section without complication: $11,500 - $13,000

C-section with complication = $15,500 - $ 18,200

Hospital stay: $4,000 - $6,000

Neonatal and pediatric care: $900 - $2,000 (no complications)

Neonatal and pediatric care: 1,500 -4,000 (with complications)

 

Average cost to give a child up for adoption, with fees included, at birth, not including all the above $7,000-10,000

 

How is someone starving to afford this? And yes, there happens to be a lot of blame. If you are starving, and the child is starving, and you attempt to give it up, you can be jailed for neglect.

 

 

 

A chance, yes -- but you're also playing dice with a life. You're literally giving a child p to a system, knowing that in all likelihood, they will not be adopted, and be abused physically or sexually at least once prior to reaching eighteen, knowing that the chance of them reaching eighteen is very slim.

 

For me, personally. I could never do that to a child. I have to go to over a dozen funerals every year of children who kill themselves because of the system -- not to mention the files I have of kids who went missing, or the funerals for those who die other ways. Playing the dice with a child's life, to me, is the most irresponsible thing a woman can do. Hope the kid hits 7 or 11, when the odds are stacked against it -- I'd take a complete lack of suffering over that any day of the week.

 

 

 

But why is that good. Why is torture preferable to death? Why is the chance preferable to nonexistence?

 

 

Okay, hold on a second here. Let's say, hypothetically, someone gets pregnant. They know they can't care for the child -- somehow, however, they know that the fetus would prefer to be aborted. (It's magic, or G-d said, or something). Would you still be against the abortion in that case?

 

(Also completely ignoring the fact that there is no guarantee that a fetus will become a human until after the legal cut-off for abortion. Again, magic/G-d/Special hypothetical dust)

I was really debating whether to come into this thread. I have always considered myself pro-life because I was raised Catholic. Never really researched the pro choice point of view. I just stayed firm with my belief because that was what I was taught. After reading this post, believe it or not, I feel better informed than I was before I entered the thread. I admire your strength and also am saddened by your experiences you wrote about. I wish you and your daughter good luck now and in the future. Saying good luck sounds a little cheesy to me but lack of sleep has made me unable to come up with something better....sorry . Thank you for making this post.

 

A lot of other people made some really great posts too. Thank you.

[CrossingStar]

@BatPopsicle - What exactly do you believe? You use the term 'pro-life,' so does that mean that you do not support abortions? I'm merely asking because I'm curious.

 

Personally, I think it's horrible that women have to struggle after rape. My own mother was raped, and that's how she had my sister. I've always wondered what made her keep the child, but I never asked because she hates discussing the past. It brings up all sorts of questions.

 

 

[KageSora]

@BatPopsicle - What exactly do you believe? You use the term 'pro-life,' so does that mean that you do not support abortions?

Just popping in to say that pro-life and pro-choice are not mutually exclusive. In fact, IMO, to be truly pro-life you need to be pro-choice. Otherwise you're just pro-birth.

 

I'm pro-life and pro-choice. I know I've run into several others who feel the same way. :3

 

I personally feel that be truly pro-life you have to factor the mother in, too, as well as the quality of life the child would have. Can you truly claim to be pro-life if you'd rather the mother die from the pregnancy (and take the unborn child with her!) than to allow her to abort it and survive? Can you truly claim to be pro-life if you'd rather force women to go to back alley clinics where they have massively greater chances of dying (again, and taking the unborn child with them!) than allowing them to go to a safe, clean place and have a professional take care of it so that they can survive? Can you truly be pro-life if you would rather force a woman to pop out a kid who will then be chucked into the system, grow up shunted between homes, never feeling wanted or loved, abused, and then ultimately taking their own life?

 

To me, being pro-life means wanting to preserve life in a quality that makes it worth living--and having the ability to prevent and unwanted life from being born, or from destroying another, is important to that.

 

I've seen several other people, as I said, who feel the same way.

 

Dunno how BatPopsicle meant it, but just wanted to mention this!

[CrossingStar]

KageSora, you bring up interesting points. Pro-life has not had that connotation for me because a lot of the vocal 'pro-lifers' seem to want the mothers to have their babies no matter what.

 

To me, being pro-life means wanting to preserve life in a quality that makes it worth living--and having the ability to prevent and unwanted life from being born, or from destroying another, is important to that.

 

This is what I thought pro-life should mean when I heard it.

[urge101]

Okay, nobody scream at me for this, or take this offensive in any shape, form, or way, but how can you kill an innocent baby?

Let's say there's a zombie apoclypse (yes, I have been watching Walking Dead ) You're running for your life when you accidentaly drop your baby. Will you risk your life for this baby, or will you leave it to die? Same applies. You make a mistake or get raped, and you find out you'll have a baby. Will you risk your life to conceive this baby, or will you inject fluids into your body and leave this baby to die?

 

Consider it.

[hazeh]

Okay, nobody scream at me for this, or take this offensive in any shape, form, or way, but how can you kill an innocent baby?

Let's say there's a zombie apoclypse (yes, I have been watching Walking Dead ) You're running for your life when you accidentaly drop your baby. Will you risk your life for this baby, or will you leave it to die? Same applies. You make a mistake or get raped, and you find out you'll have a baby. Will you risk your life to conceive this baby, or will you inject fluids into your body and leave this baby to die?

 

Consider it.

Why should I give up my life for a baby I don't even want?

 

 

Come up with an alternative to pregnancy and then we'll talk.

[urge101]

Cause it's a * BABY! I mean, it's not the babies fault his/her mom got raped and doesn't want him/her!Why kill a baby that didn't do anything wrong?

What if the 1st people on the world killed their babies?

No Earth.

Edited December 12, 2012 by MURDERcomplexx

[Shienvien]

Okay, nobody scream at me for this, or take this offensive in any shape, form, or way, but how can you kill an innocent baby?

As I see it, a fetus is nothing like a baby yet. An early fetus is naught but a clump of cells with some moderate potential for developing into life - and it certainly is not a person yet.

 

A baby, however, has a functional brain, can feel discomfort and contentment, it can be happy, can be miserable, it can feel warmth, can feel pain, it can recognize a person's face and will react positively to attention...

A fetus can properly none of it, at least not before the 20th week of pregnancy or so (and third-trimester abortions are something which are typically not done unless the mother's life is in danger or the fetus is malformed, and are typically sad things indeed).

 

 

EDIT: what is your standpoint in cases where it is either the fetus or the fetus and the woman carrying it?

Edited December 11, 2012 by Shienvien

[7Deadly$ins]

Okay, nobody scream at me for this, or take this offensive in any shape, form, or way, but how can you kill an innocent baby?

            Let's say there's a zombie apoclypse (yes, I have been watching Walking Dead ) You're running for your life when you accidentaly drop your baby. Will you risk your life for this baby, or will you leave it to die? Same applies. You make a mistake or get raped, and you find out you'll have a baby. Will you risk your life to conceive this baby, or will you inject fluids into your body and leave this baby to die?

 

Consider it.

It isn't a baby. It has no perception, it cannot survive outside of specific conditions. You can put a baby in a crib and go into the next room, but you can't leave a fetus.

 

You wake up one morning and find that you are connected through IV and such to a person you've never met before. Someone tells you that this person is very talented, a world-class violin player, and unfortunately they're dying. But if you let them follow you everywhere, against your will, while connected and taking your blood, nutrients, etc., they'll live. If you do this for nine months, this is. Keep in mind you didn't consent to this, and you don't know this person or have any desire to.

 

Consider it. Would you?

 

Cause it's a ** BABY! I mean, it's not the babies fault his/her mom got raped and doesn't want him/her!Why kill a baby that didn't do anything wrong?

What if the 1st people on the world killed their babies?

No Earth.

 

It won't matter to the cells one whit if the stop developing. Are you religious? "First person on the world" isn't really a concept that checks out evolutionarily.

Edited December 16, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[urge101]

This 'clump of cells' will eventually be Billy. World-class scientist, straight A student, inventor of the cure for cancer that saved millions of lives, popular, and a friend to that 1 guy that wanted to commit suicide. It not only affects this fetus. It effects others.

[7Deadly$ins]

This 'clump of cells' will eventually be Billy. World-class scientist, straight A student, inventor of the cure for cancer that saved millions of lives, popular, and a friend to that 1 guy that wanted to commit suicide. It not only affects this fetus. It effects others.

Yes, or Hitler.

[urge101]

You'll never know if you kill it.

[Shienvien]

This 'clump of cells' will eventually be Billy. World-class scientist, straight A student, inventor of the cure for cancer that saved millions of lives, popular, and a friend to that 1 guy that wanted to commit suicide. It not only affects this fetus. It effects others.

Alternatively, it could be the mass-murderer who will kill a quarter-hundred people in thirty years. Or the dictator who will eventually initiate World War III and orchestrate the death of millions.

 

Or perhaps the fetus will miscarry. Or perhaps the woman carrying the fetus will die (or commit suicide) because of the fetus and take the fetus with her.

 

 

Point being, you don't know whether the hypothetical person will do any good to the society. People who are not loved by their parents, however, very rarely grow up to be functional members of society (see ShinyTomato's statistics).

[PointOfOrigin]

Yes, or Hitler.

On topic of Hitler... I heard somewhere that his mother wanted to abort him, but she was forced to keep him. Is that true, or just a popular myth?

 

Urge:

, I don't understand how Earth wouldn't exist if there weren't any people around. It could only be better of.

 

Also, what after the baby is born and still unwanted? What would you do then? Chuck it an system where most kids try to kill themselves? What if the mother isn't capable emotionally to carry a baby?

[7Deadly$ins]

You'll never know if you kill it.

Exactly. This is an invalid argument designed to tug at heartstrings and get people to abandon logic.

[Kestra15]

Fetus =/= person.

 

However...

 

I love my niece, having never met her or seen my sister when she was heavily pregnant, and I think that started when Girl's personality started developing - and that did seem to be in the latter half of the second trimester. And by personality I mean that she reacted to certain kinds of music and singers, had a very set daily routine (which was almost the opposite to my sister's routine it seemed!) - she and my sister's kitty were even friends, all before birth.

 

So while I can understand the concept of abortion killing a 'person,' I am still happy with early terminations being an option where required. But there is a reason that there is a cut-off age, and certainly when you get past the point of reasonable viability then I do think that alternatives should be considered where possible and practicable.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Kestra15

[Shienvien]

And by personality I mean that she reacted to certain kinds of music and singers, had a very set daily routine...

'Reacting' doesn't necessarily indicate the mental processing of the stimuli, though. Even single-cell living beings can have their cycles of activity and will react to their surroundings, and it cases these reactions can be quite specific (even up to 'preferring' certain frequencies in sounds, for comparison).

 

As it is, the most definite way of determining when higher brain function is present is to monitor which parts of the brain are active and functional, and to what extent.