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IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW, THANK YOU FOR SHINING THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE UPON MY QUESTION!

 

xd.png

 

But man, I don't understand these people. I get stupider every time they spew this crap, because reading it kills my brain.

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OOH OOH I THINK KNOW THE ANSWER! Anyone who has a disabled child after having had an abortion, or is a disabled child of someone who has had an abortion, well they're/you're the punishment for that. Those of you who are disabled children of people who haven't, well...either your parents are being punished in place of someone else (one of those evol ladeez who haven't had children after having an abortion) because of the mere existence of abortion OR your parents are being punished because of the existence/tolerance of teh ghey.

</trolllogic>

I'll go tell my brother! He'll be so excited to know that he's a punishment for some other lady that's had an abortion! I'm so relieved to finally have an answer!

 

Seriously, I think people like Bob Marshall are the disabled ones. I wouldn't be surprised if he had been dropped 2 or 50 times when he was a baby.

 

@ylangylang true...I shouldn't wish that kind of torture on a poor defenseless cactus. Unless it's the offspring of a cactus who had an abortion. Then it would, like, totally deserve it, y'know?

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@ylangylang true...I shouldn't wish that kind of torture on a poor defenseless cactus. Unless it's the offspring of a cactus who had an abortion. Then it would, like, totally deserve it, y'know?

But of course. wink.gif How dare a cactus defy God's law!

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I don't get his logic. If it's the mother who "did wrong" why punish the child who is innocent? Wouldn't it be more logic if the "punishment" would be becoming infertile or having an accident (becoming disabled yourself).

 

Strange that these deranged persons who spout their nonsense all about never recognize how sick they are and how much their "logic" lacks logic.

Edited by Lilithiana

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So let me get this straight... they always say to not punish the "innocent" child by having an abortion. But if you have one, then the next "innocent" child should be punished with a disability?

 

Yeah, so much logic there. dry.gif

 

And my mom gave up her first child for adoption instead of aborting her (and she was lucky enough to find a home!). By their logic, I shouldn't have Asperger's.

Edited by St. Jimmy

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So let me get this straight... they always say to not punish the "innocent" child by having an abortion. But if you have one, then the next "innocent" child should be punished with a disability?

 

Yeah, so much logic there. dry.gif

 

And my mom gave up her first child for adoption instead of aborting her (and she was lucky enough to find a home!). By their logic, I shouldn't have Asperger's.

I thought it was the sins of the FATHERS that got visited upon the next generation.... xd.png

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ohmy.gif You are absolutely right! So all the disabled person's fathers had an abortion! blink.gif Wait... somethings wrong again. laugh.gif

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This just came through on a friend's facebook status, and I thought I'd throw it out here for a critique.

 

Myth #1. Illegal abortions were performed by unlicensed, unskilled hacks. Prior to legalization, 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by physicians.2 Most of the remainder were done by nurses, midwives or others with at least some medical training. The term “back alley” referred not to where abortions were performed, but to how women were instructed to enter the doctor’s office after hours, through the back alley, to avoid arousing neighbors’ suspicions.

 

Myth #2. Tens of thousands of women died from illegal abortions every year. This pseudo-fact was much repeated by the media. The late Dr. Bernard Nathanson, one of the co-founders of the National Abortion Rights Action League and the obstetrician/ gynecologist who directed what was in the 1970s the world’s largest abortion clinic, later revealed that leading abortion proponents knew this figure was false but considered it to be “useful” in their public relations campaign.3 Even Planned Parenthood’s own leading statisticians admitted that the official statistics on deaths resulting from illegal abortion were very accurately reported prior to 1973. In 1972, there were only 39 maternal deaths related to illegal abortion, not the thousands proclaimed by pro-abortionists.

 

In fact, deaths from illegal abortions were already declining or leveling off prior to 1973. After legalization, this trend remained unchanged. Deaths eliminated from the illegal abortion column were replaced by deaths resulting from legal abortion.

 

The number of women dying from legal abortions is probably several times what it was when abortion was illegal. For many compelling reasons, deaths resulting from illegal abortion were accurately reported on death certificates. Independent studies have confirmed this. But ever since 1973, whenever a legal abortion results in a maternal death the underlying cause is often, and perhaps usually, ignored or disguised on death certificates.

 

This occurs for many reasons: to spare the surviving family members embarrassment, to limit liability exposure, to avoid tarnishing public perceptions of abortion, and simply because the death is no longer related to a criminal activity.5

 

Independent studies have confirmed the fact that the official statistics on maternal mortality following legal abortions are woefully inaccurate. Most recently, a single researcher examining public records was able to document 50 percent more deaths related to legal abortion than had been reported in the “official” government reports.6 The researcher, Kevin Sherlock, insisted that even his efforts have uncovered only a small fraction of these misclassified abortion related deaths. Further, researchers in Finland who linked women’s death certificates to their medical records found that 94 percent of maternal deaths associated with abortion are not identifiable as such when looking at the the death certificates alone.

 

Myth #3. There were a million illegal abortions performed each year. This was another made-up number intended to shock the public with the “overwhelming” dimensions of this unstoppable problem. Scientific estimates based on known deaths and complications related to illegal abortion show that the actual rate of illegal abortions was in the range of 60,000 to 200,000 per year.

 

Surveys of women who sought illegal abortions at that time confirm this much lower estimate for the overall rate of illegal abortion. These surveys also showed that less than half of women who sought an illegal abortion actually persisted in obtaining one. In addition, among those women who did procure an illegal abortion, the reported rate of physical complications was almost identical to the complication rate related to legal abortions. This last fact is not surprising since most illegal abortions were already performed by physicians.7

 

Myth #4. If abortion becomes illegal, women will seek out illegal abortions. Surveys of women undergoing legal abortions confirm that only 6 to 20 percent would have considered seeking an illegal abortion if it was not legally available. This finding also confirms that legalization of abortion has replaced every illegal abortion that we sought to avoid with between ten and fifteen legal abortions.8

 

Further, research and anecdotal evidence finds that most women having abortions are pressured or coerced to do so by someone else — and that most abortions are likely unwanted. Before 1973, women could refuse an unwanted abortion on the grounds that it was illegal, unsafe and immoral. Legalization has made it easier for those around her to insist that because abortion is legal it must be “safe,” and because it is “socially approved,” it must be moral. It makes it easier for them to refuse to support her desire to continue the pregnancy and insist that she abort anyway.

 

For example, when actress Hunter Tylo was fired from the TV show Melrose Place after she became pregnant, her pregnancy discrimination suit quoted a producer as saying, “Why doesn’t she just go out and have an abortion? Then she can work.” 9

 

Myth #5. Legal abortions are safer than illegal abortions. Any marginal improvements in the safety of legal abortions, as compared to illegal abortions, are more than offset by the astronomical increase in the number of women exposed to the inherent risks of induced abortion, legal or illegal. While the percentage of women dying from abortion is lower, the actual number of women dying has increased. The actual number of women suffering physical complications has increased. The actual number of women suffering psychological complications has increased. The suffering of women, men, and families has not been reduced by legalization; it has been increased.

 

There are also many deaths which are indirectly caused by abortion. Women with a history of abortion are 3.5 times more likely to die following abortion and six times more likely to commit suicide than are women who give birth. They are also more prone to substance abuse and other forms of risky behavior that may lead to death. Indeed, more than 30 studies published in the last five years alone have linked abortion to higher rates of mental health problems, including depression, substance abuse, suicidal behavior, and anxiety disorders — including symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.

 

More abortions, not safer abortions

 

As these basic facts illustrate, the claim that legalized abortion will save women from “unsafe abortions” is without merit. The basic flaw in this argument is the false assumption that a change in legal status can make safe a medical act that is inherently unsafe. It is also absurd to believe that legalizing abortion will not increase the abortion rate or expose a whole new group of women to the danger of being pressured into unwanted abortions.

 

Society has overlooked the fact that not a single study has ever been published which shows that abortion, for any given reason, actually benefits the physical, emotional, economic, or social health of women. Indeed, the available evidence shows that abortion is instead associated with a worsening of the physical, emotional, economic, and social well-being of women.

 

Legalized abortion has contributed to the feminization of poverty and increased dependency on welfare.10 Easy access to abortion has made it easier, not harder, for men to abandon their wives and girlfriends. In addition, women with a history of abortion are more likely to experience breast cancer, substance abuse, sleep disorders, sexual dysfunction, suicidal impulses, psychiatric hospitalization, and other problems.

 

The only ones receiving any tangible benefit from legalized abortion are not women, but rather, the elitist population controllers. Through the legalization of abortion, they have succeeded in reducing the birth rates among the “lower classes” and racial minorities, which was exactly their goal. But the cost to women has been tremendous.

 

The exploitation of women is made worse by the fact that abortion clinic counselors routinely withhold information about risks and alternatives from their patients. Deceptive business practices, negligence, and even sexual abuse of patients are well documented throughout the abortion industry.11 Kevin Sherlock, author of Victims of Choice, has accurately described the present situation with this memorable comment: “While abortion is legal, it is still practiced with the ethics of the back alley.”

 

The truth is that legal abortion still hurts, traumatizes and even kills women and girls. In a letter posted at Fredricksburg.com, Eileen Roberts, president of Mothers and Advocates for Mothers Alone, and the mother of a teen girl injured by abortion, wrote:

 

How can we be so naive to think that every surgical procedure of abortion is safe and use the argument that women would resort to back-alley abortions? Legalizing abortion simply gave the back-alley physician permission to put his shingle on the front door.

 

… Abortion may be currently legal, but it is anything but safe for either mother or child. In every abortion someone dies.

 

My 14-year-old was told she was going to the best abortion clinic in Virginia. Her boyfriend and a so-called adult friend, who transported her 45 miles from our home, did not know her as her parents did.

 

She suffered emotional and physical consequences from a so-called safe, legal abortion.

 

To add insult to injury, my husband and I were responsible for more than $27,000 in medical costs to repair the damage done by the abortionist.

 

In my opinion, this was an example of a legal back-alley abortion.

 

***

 

Citations

 

1. Much of this information is taken from David C. Reardon, Aborted Women, Silent No More (Springfield, IL: Acorn Books, 2002) 281-310. Reference the book for any sources not cited in this article.

 

2. Germain Grisez, Abortion: the Myths, the Realities, and the Arguments (New York: Corpus Books, 1972) 49.

 

3. Bernard Nathanson, M.D., with Richard Ostling, Aborting America (Garden City, New York: Doubleday and Company, Inc., 1979) 193.

 

4. See Grisez, Abortion: Myths, Realities, and Arguments, 70-71 and Nathanson, Aborting America, 193.

 

5. For further discussion and details, see Aborted Women, Silent No More, 282-286.

 

6. Kevin Sherlock, Victims of Choice (Akron, OH: Brennyman Books, 1996). See also Mark Crutcher, Lime 5 (Denton, TX: Life Dynamics, 1996) and David C. Reardon, “The Cover-Up: Why U.S. Abortion Statistics Are Meaningless,” The Post-Abortion Review, Vol. 8, No. 2, April-June 2000.

 

7. See see Aborted Women, Silent No More, 287-289.

 

8. see Aborted Women, Silent No More, 289-291.

 

9. A. Covarrubias, “7.7m for actor fired over pregnancy,” The Age, Dec. 24, 1997, p. A7. For more examples, see the special report, Forced Abortion in America.

 

10. David C. Reardon, “Abortion and the Feminization of Poverty” The Post-Abortion Review 1(3), Fall 1993.

 

11. See http://www.theunchoice.com/coerced.htm. See also, Melinda Tankard Reist, Giving Sorrow Words: Women’s Stories of Grief After Abortion (Springfield, IL: Acorn Books, 2007); Reardon, Aborted Women, Silent No More; Crutcher, Lime 5; and Sherlock, Victims of Choice; for hundreds of well documented examples.

 

Thoughts? I know the little factoid about breast cancer is a misconception, because that has been addressed here before. Any other problems?

Edited by philpot123

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This just came through on a friend's facebook status, and I thought I'd throw it out here for a critique.

 

 

 

Thoughts? I know the little factoid about breast cancer is a misconception, because that has been addressed here before. Any other problems?

I am going to look up facts in just a minute, but from personal experience as a person living in a place where abortion is indeed illegal but tolerated-

Myth #4. If abortion becomes illegal, women will seek out illegal abortions. Surveys of women undergoing legal abortions confirm that only 6 to 20 percent would have considered seeking an illegal abortion if it was not legally available. This finding also confirms that legalization of abortion has replaced every illegal abortion that we sought to avoid with between ten and fifteen legal abortions.

Untrue. People do seek out "illegal" abortions all the time, because the cost of the alternative is way bigger. In fact I think there was research here on how abortion prices went up which caused people to seek out alternative methods such as going over to China, unsafe "abortifacts" that could leave you unable to ever have kids again, etc. I'll look it up a bit later because it's around 6 in the morning right now but yeah.

 

Edit: Okay, found an article, not a research paper-

it's here http://www.womennews.co.kr/news/45834 but it's in Korean so I'll just translate the relevant bits. Apparently Korea has a site called http://hotline.or.kr/respect/ where people can talk anonymously about their troubles with abortion and stuff, I think it was made illegal in 2010, but anyways, there were cases where a woman went to China and other countries to get an abortion, where she isn't covered by insurance, and also apparently before this the overall price for an abortion was pretty much the same-about $300~500 for those who do it in the first 3~4 weeks. Now it's gone up to about $800~4100.

Edited by ylangylang

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This just came through on a friend's facebook status, and I thought I'd throw it out here for a critique.

 

Thoughts? I know the little factoid about breast cancer is a misconception, because that has been addressed here before. Any other problems?

Myth #2. Tens of thousands of women died from illegal abortions every year.

...

Myth #5. Legal abortions are safer than illegal abortions.

Both of these are not myths.

Abortion, when induced in the developed world in accordance with local law, is among the safest procedures in medicine. However, unsafe abortions result in approximately 70 thousand maternal deaths and 5 million disabilities per year globally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion (and sources thereof - and I might point out that this is an extremely well sourced article)

Abortion-related deaths are more frequent in countries with more restrictive abortion laws (34 deaths per 100,000 childbirths) than in countries with less restrictive laws (1 or fewer per 100,000 childbirths).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2709326/

 

ETA: There are others points that I might add, but alas, I've got to be able to get up for work tomorrow. Suffice to say, however, that that list of 'myths' and apparent contradictions seems to be based on pretty mythical evidence itself.

Edited by Zaxian

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Both of these are not myths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion (and sources thereof - and I might point out that this is an extremely well sourced article)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2709326/

 

ETA: There are others points that I might add, but alas, I've got to be able to get up for work tomorrow. Suffice to say, however, that that list of 'myths' and apparent contradictions seems to be based on pretty mythical evidence itself.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but perhaps the status I quoted is referring solely to pre-legalized abortion America? The statistics you linked to are worldwide, so they would include places where medical practices are less sanitary in general. I'm neutral as far as the facts in that status go, that's why I posted it here for feedback. I don't know what's fact or not.

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Myth #1. Illegal abortions were performed by unlicensed, unskilled hacks. Prior to legalization, 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by physicians.2 Most of the remainder were done by nurses, midwives or others with at least some medical training. The term “back alley” referred not to where abortions were performed, but to how women were instructed to enter the doctor’s office after hours, through the back alley, to avoid arousing neighbors’ suspicions.

 

From: http://socialistworker.org/2005-2/562/562_06_Abortion.shtml

 

"In the post-Second World War era in the U.S., there was a backlash against women's rights, and women working outside the home and living independent lives. Central to this was a crackdown on illegal abortion that drove it underground and ushered in an era of tragedy and horror for women.

 

Clinics and midwives' homes and offices were raided and their patients' lives exposed publicly in show trials that mirrored the worst of the anti-communist witch-hunts of the McCarthyist era. Women were accosted by police detectives outside clinics and forced to testify against those who performed abortions. Anyone who didn't cooperate was likely to wake up the next morning with details of their personal lives splashed all over the pages of the newspaper.

 

As a result, most illegal abortions were increasingly self-induced by women, or performed by a back-alley butcher.

 

Both were nightmares in their own right. Women often tried to induce abortion or cause a miscarriage by throwing themselves down stairs or inflicting violence on themselves. They ingested, censorkip.gif*d with or inserted into themselves a chilling variety of chemicals and toxins--from bleach to potassium permanganate to turpentine to gunpowder and whiskey. Knitting needles, crochet hooks, scissors and coat hangers were all among the tools used by women who had no choice but to resort to these means.

 

Thousands of women died from poisoning and injury. Thousands of others lived, but with the pain of permanent injuries and disfigurement.

 

Women who sought abortions from back-alley butchers encountered similar horrors. Because of the crackdown, the clandestine nature of illegal abortion meant that women who sought them were often blindfolded, driven to remote areas and passed off to people they didn't know or couldn't see. Leslie Reagan's book contains stories of women forced to get abortions from drunk abortionists, using unsanitary tools in filthy rooms and even the backseats of cars."

 

(more on this part at the site; I'd advise going there and reading.)

 

 

Myth #5: Legal abortions are safer than illegal abortions. Any marginal improvements in the safety of legal abortions, as compared to illegal abortions, are more than offset by the astronomical increase in the number of women exposed to the inherent risks of induced abortion, legal or illegal. While the percentage of women dying from abortion is lower, the actual number of women dying has increased. The actual number of women suffering physical complications has increased. The actual number of women suffering psychological complications has increased. The suffering of women, men, and families has not been reduced by legalization; it has been increased.

From: http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/com...ompID=100&id=20

(bullet point number four)

"Prior to Roe v. Wade, as many as 5,000 American women died annually as a direct result of unsafe abortions.4 Today, abortion is one of the most commonly performed clinical procedures in the United States, and the current death rate from abortion at all stages of gestations is 0.6 per 100,000 procedures. This is 11 times safer than carrying a pregnancy to term and nearly twice as safe as a penicillin injection."

 

From: http://socialistworker.org/2005-2/562/562_06_Abortion.shtml

 

"One 1932 study estimated that illegal abortions or complications from them were the cause of death for 15,000 women each year. Current, more conservative, estimates of the death toll still stand at between 5,000 and 10,000 deaths per year.

 

Some of these deaths were the result of the abortions themselves, but many more were from infection and hemorrhaging afterward. Because of the fear of being punished and socially ostracized, many women--and their doctors--kept their real condition a secret."

 

Also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12340404

 

Society has overlooked the fact that not a single study has ever been published which shows that abortion, for any given reason, actually benefits the physical, emotional, economic,  or social health of women.

Even if there haven't been studies, there is documented evidence that it does. Like thousands of women who are alive today because of them, or not in poverty, or who aborted after being raped and are now far better off psychologically than they would have been if they'd been forced to bear the child.

 

 

The exploitation of women is made worse by the fact that abortion clinic counselors routinely withhold information about risks and alternatives from their patients. Deceptive business practices, negligence, and even sexual abuse of patients are well documented throughout the abortion industry.11 Kevin Sherlock, author of Victims of Choice, has accurately described the present situation with this memorable comment: “While abortion is legal, it is still practiced with the ethics of the back alley.”

 

Uh, no. The routine procedure is to go over risks with patients. Remind me again which side it is that is legally requiring doctors LIE to patients regarding risks? (Hint:It's not the ones who want to keep abortion legal.)

 

 

Legalized abortion has contributed to the feminization of poverty and increased dependency on welfare.10 Easy access to abortion has made it easier, not harder, for men to abandon their wives and girlfriends. In addition, women with a history of abortion are more likely to experience breast cancer, substance abuse, sleep disorders, sexual dysfunction, suicidal impulses, psychiatric hospitalization, and other problems.

The first part of this one doesn't even make sense. Somehow, giving women the ability to control their own reproductive health and reduce them number of children they have=increasing the number of people on welfare? In this reality, quite the opposite is true.

 

For the second part, I won't bother with the bit about breast cancer, but as for the rest:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/3/gpr090308.html

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/j....2012.01.019.pdf

 

 

 

BTW, I would like to point out that, for much of what is quoted and cited, "Recently" refers to 1979, so the information is a bit out of date. (Not your fault of course, phil, but I wonder if the person who posted all of that noticed or cared.) I question whether much of what's cited was even valid back then, much less currently. Obviously, the parts about breast cancer and psychological damage weren't.

 

I'm currently looking for more sites and studies to add, so this post may keep changing.

Edited by LascielsShadow

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From: http://socialistworker.org/2005-2/562/562_06_Abortion.shtml

 

"In the post-Second World War era in the U.S., there was a backlash against women's rights, and women working outside the home and living independent lives. Central to this was a crackdown on illegal abortion that drove it underground and ushered in an era of tragedy and horror for women.

 

Clinics and midwives' homes and offices were raided and their patients' lives exposed publicly in show trials that mirrored the worst of the anti-communist witch-hunts of the McCarthyist era. Women were accosted by police detectives outside clinics and forced to testify against those who performed abortions. Anyone who didn't cooperate was likely to wake up the next morning with details of their personal lives splashed all over the pages of the newspaper.

 

As a result, most illegal abortions were increasingly self-induced by women, or performed by a back-alley butcher.

 

Both were nightmares in their own right. Women often tried to induce abortion or cause a miscarriage by throwing themselves down stairs or inflicting violence on themselves. They ingested, censorkip.gif*d with or inserted into themselves a chilling variety of chemicals and toxins--from bleach to potassium permanganate to turpentine to gunpowder and whiskey. Knitting needles, crochet hooks, scissors and coat hangers were all among the tools used by women who had no choice but to resort to these means.

 

Thousands of women died from poisoning and injury. Thousands of others lived, but with the pain of permanent injuries and disfigurement.

 

Women who sought abortions from back-alley butchers encountered similar horrors. Because of the crackdown, the clandestine nature of illegal abortion meant that women who sought them were often blindfolded, driven to remote areas and passed off to people they didn't know or couldn't see. Leslie Reagan's book contains stories of women forced to get abortions from drunk abortionists, using unsanitary tools in filthy rooms and even the backseats of cars."

 

(more on this part at the site; I'd advise going there and reading.)

 

 

 

From: http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/com...ompID=100&id=20

(bullet point number four)

"Prior to Roe v. Wade, as many as 5,000 American women died annually as a direct result of unsafe abortions.4 Today, abortion is one of the most commonly performed clinical procedures in the United States, and the current death rate from abortion at all stages of gestations is 0.6 per 100,000 procedures. This is 11 times safer than carrying a pregnancy to term and nearly twice as safe as a penicillin injection."

 

From: http://socialistworker.org/2005-2/562/562_06_Abortion.shtml

 

"One 1932 study estimated that illegal abortions or complications from them were the cause of death for 15,000 women each year. Current, more conservative, estimates of the death toll still stand at between 5,000 and 10,000 deaths per year.

 

Some of these deaths were the result of the abortions themselves, but many more were from infection and hemorrhaging afterward. Because of the fear of being punished and socially ostracized, many women--and their doctors--kept their real condition a secret."

 

Also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12340404

 

 

Even if there haven't been studies, there is documented evidence that it does. Like thousands of women who are alive today because of them, or not in poverty, or who aborted after being raped and are now far better off psychologically than they would have been if they'd been forced to bear the child.

 

 

 

 

Uh, no. The routine procedure is to go over risks with patients. Remind me again which side it is that is legally requiring doctors LIE to patients regarding risks? (Hint:It's not the ones who want to keep abortion legal.)

 

 

 

The first part of this one doesn't even make sense. Somehow, giving women the ability to control their own reproductive health and reduce them number of children they have=increasing the number of people on welfare? In this reality, quite the opposite is true.

 

For the second part, I won't bother with the bit abotu breast cancer, but as for the rest:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/3/gpr090308.html

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/j....2012.01.019.pdf

 

 

 

BTW, I would like to point out that, for much of what is quoted and cited, "Recently" refers to 1979. (Not your fault of course, phil, but I wonder if the person who posted all of that noticed or cared.) I question whether much of what's cited was even valid back then, much less currently. Obviously, the parts about breast cancer and psychological damage weren't.

Thanks for the links, I'll read through them when I have more time. As I said, I'm neutral as far as this goes. I'm pro-life, but I've seen a lot of untrue propaganda from the pro-life camp on a regular basis, so fact checking doesn't hurt tongue.gif Thanks again.

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I can't look it up at the moment, but isn't the US mortality rate in hospitals pretty bad overall? I've seen more than a few clips suggesting that it's unsafe to go into ERs. I saw the local hospitals in my area rated by consumer reports this summer, none were over 50% sad.gif

 

Also, there's been reports of a growing trend here in Texas of people that cross the border to get a specific drug available over the counter there, for abortions. Here's a couple links to various Texas specific articles.

 

http://newamericamedia.org/2012/08/in-sout...ortion-drug.php

 

http://www.texasobserver.org/cover-story/o...nned-parenthood

 

http://www.texasobserver.org/thewholestar/...ing-logic-fails

 

http://www.texasobserver.org/cover-story/t...ght-not-to-know

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Thanks for the links, I'll read through them when I have more time. As I said, I'm neutral as far as this goes. I'm pro-life, but I've seen a lot of untrue propaganda from the pro-life camp on a regular basis, so fact checking doesn't hurt tongue.gif Thanks again.

You're welcome. smile.gif I'm trying to find a little more, but on this computer, it's a pain. I get a little tired of seeing all the untrue propaganda, so I like doing a little fact-checking. I understand the pro-life side's position, I just dislike the dishonesty from some people.

 

I forgot to add that the NIH link is to an analysis from 1985, but I think it still stands as valid.

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I can't look it up at the moment, but isn't the US mortality rate in hospitals pretty bad overall? I've seen more than a few clips suggesting that it's unsafe to go into ERs. I saw the local hospitals in my area rated by consumer reports this summer, none were over 50% sad.gif

 

Also, there's been reports of a growing trend here in Texas of people that cross the border to get a specific drug available over the counter there, for abortions. Here's a couple links to various Texas specific articles.

 

http://newamericamedia.org/2012/08/in-sout...ortion-drug.php

 

http://www.texasobserver.org/cover-story/o...nned-parenthood

 

http://www.texasobserver.org/thewholestar/...ing-logic-fails

 

http://www.texasobserver.org/cover-story/t...ght-not-to-know

the last link isn't working

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Thoughts? I know the little factoid about breast cancer is a misconception, because that has been addressed here before. Any other problems?

Mostly I'm slightly worried that their fourteen year old daughter was pregnant, and the biggest thing worrying them was telling other people how bad an abortion was. I mean, geeze. You want to start somewhere start by giving that kid some safe sex education.

 

Because, you know, if she'd had better sex education there wouldn't have been a pregnancy in the first place.

Edited by TikindiDragon

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Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but perhaps the status I quoted is referring solely to pre-legalized abortion America? The statistics you linked to are worldwide, so they would include places where medical practices are less sanitary in general. I'm neutral as far as the facts in that status go, that's why I posted it here for feedback. I don't know what's fact or not.

I conceed that the OP may have been intending to refer to America alone, but if that's the case, as one of the other posters noted, we're still talking about *thousands* of women dying, and presumably many more suffering long term complications (and I think you'd have to be pretty callous to suggest that whilst tens of thousands of women dying is unnacceptable, if it's only thousands of women dying then that's alright).

 

Anyway:

Myth #5. Legal abortions are safer than illegal abortions. Any marginal improvements in the safety of legal abortions, as compared to illegal abortions, are more than offset by the astronomical increase in the number of women exposed to the inherent risks of induced abortion, legal or illegal. While the percentage of women dying from abortion is lower, the actual number of women dying has increased.

There are approx 850,000 abortions per year in the US (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_stat...e_United_States, numbers as reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention), and in the US, there is a rate of 0.6 deaths per 100,000 abortions (from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271), which with a little maths gives us an approximate rate of 5.1 deaths from abortion in the US per year. Which is just a bit less than 5000-10000 ;)

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For some reason, that last link takes awhile to load. But give it a minute and it still should come up.

 

Sadly, the Missouri legislature just overrode the Governor's on an anti-birth control bill. So, Employers can use their religion to make demands on what health coverage a woman can get with her insurance.

 

Article

The Missouri Legislature has voted to override Gov. Jay Nixon's veto of a bill that would allow employers to opt out of covering contraceptives in health insurance policies for religious reasons.

 

There is already a group bringing lawsuits against it.

As part of its lawsuit against the contraceptives bill, the Greater Kansas City Coalition of Labor Union Women is seeking an injunction to stop it from ever taking effect.

 

"The provisions (in the legislation) are targeted heavily toward services used by female employees," the lawsuit states. "(It) allows employers to refuse to cover health services in a way that disproportionately impacts women and lacks a valid business justification."

 

It adds that the legislation "allows employers to impose their own religious views on employees by refusing to cover health services on the basis of the employer's religion — even if those services are allowed or required by the employee's religion."

 

I hope they win and it shuts down this ridiculous argument once and for all.

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I hope they win and it shuts down this ridiculous argument once and for all.

Amen. I just don't see how this works, possibly because I've never encountered this sort of situation before...I would like it if someone explained this to me. Why is it possible for someone to stop you from whatever it is that you're doing because that someone believes in a different religion from you? It's not like a job's as easy to move as, say, restaurants or hospitals or whatever.

 

For example: I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a Jehovah's Witness to refuse blood transfusion, or refuse me blood transfusion and then recommend another hospital/doctor if I'm not a Jehovah's witness. That makes sense. But-if I'm on the verge of death, and I need the blood transfusion now or I'll die, and there is only that one Jehovah's Witness doctor, we have to by law allow blood transfusion if I'm not a Jehovah's witness. That's our law though, dunno how that would work in the states.

Edited by ylangylang

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http://www.amplifyyourvoice.org/u/pheo152/...rochoice-policy

 

This site rounds out what most of us have said.

Nice link! But WARNING, do NOT NOT NOT scroll down to the comments. (I know, I know-never read the comments.) They're full of victim-blaming, anti-choice rhetoric, including advocating that ten year olds give birth. (because hey, Mary did it, and she was about 12! If she did it and other ten or twelve year olds thousands of years ago did, you can't say that a ten year old now is "too young"!)

Edited by LascielsShadow

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(because hey, Mary did it, and she was about 12! If she did it and other ten or twelve year olds thousands of years ago did, you can't say that a ten year old now is "too young"!)

They fail to take into account that people back then didn't live as long, so they were built to give birth around that age... and many died doing it anyway.

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Nice link! But WARNING, do NOT NOT NOT scroll down to the comments. (I know, I know-never read the comments.) They're full of victim-blaming, anti-choice rhetoric, including advocating that ten year olds give birth. (because hey, Mary did it, and she was about 12! If she did it and other ten or twelve year olds thousands of years ago did, you can't say that a ten year old now is "too young"!)

Oh god, these comments are disgusting. Of course people gave birth that early then, the mortality rate was too high. What would they be advocating next, marrying a 9 year old? Gross.

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Opinion - yes, if it has a real reasons, like pregnacy danger, high risks of severe DNA disease. We have a nice sample on "DNA Diseases" class then teacher made a situation then you have to say "Expertice said what your boy-baby will be 100% healthy - but, if it'll be a girl, there will be a chance your grandson can be DNA sick".

 

Too long text to say and mai iingleesh eesn't tha-a-at gud[sorry for possible eye-torture]. And, don't have much to say about unwanteds or early pregnacy.

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