Abortion

[hazeh]

The argument of "Don't have sex if you don't want kids" is by far one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever heard. Don't want to get in an accident? Don't drive a car. Don't want to burn yourself on a hot stove? Don't cook. (Because touching a hot stove will always result in a burn, whereas sex does not always result in children.) Don't want to get fat? Don't eat junk food.

 

Just because a baby might be a product of sex doesn't mean women have to accept it. Since abortion, birth control/morning after pill are options to that, then obviously they don't have to accept it.

[philpot123]

The argument of "Don't have sex if you don't want kids" is by far one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever heard. Don't want to get in an accident? Don't drive a car. Don't want to burn yourself on a hot stove? Don't cook. (Because touching a hot stove will always result in a burn, whereas sex does not always result in children.) Don't want to get fat? Don't eat junk food.

 

Just because a baby might be a product of sex doesn't mean women have to accept it. Since abortion, birth control/morning after pill are options to that, then obviously they don't have to accept it.

That same argument gets tossed around a lot for different subjects, and is alternately held as legitimate or illegitimate depending on the issue. Don't like gay marriages? Don't get gay married. That gets tossed around a lot, and is held as perfectly reasonable. Don't like guns? Don't own one. Again, regardless of your stance on the issue, it really doesn't answer ANY objections to the ownership of guns. It goes both ways, so if you're going to throw out that argument in one area, then go ahead and call it useless in ALL debates, don't pick and choose.

 

(not saying YOU do, just that I've heard people do so.)

[hazeh]

That same argument gets tossed around a lot for different subjects, and is alternately held as legitimate or illegitimate depending on the issue. Don't like gay marriages? Don't get gay married. That gets tossed around a lot, and is held as perfectly reasonable. Don't like guns? Don't own one. Again, regardless of your stance on the issue, it really doesn't answer ANY objections to the ownership of guns. It goes both ways, so if you're going to throw out that argument in one area, then go ahead and call it useless in ALL debates, don't pick and choose.

 

(not saying YOU do, just that I've heard people do so.)

My point was more geared towards the ending result, not the actual argument itself. The ones you gave examples with don't fall in line with what I said. Having sex doesn't always end up in pregnancies, just like driving a car doesn't always end up in accidents, or eating junk food gets people fat... there's a chance, but just because there is a chance doesn't mean that should be the whole premise for not doing something. Especially when those rates are quite low with adequate precaution.

 

The 'Don't like gay marriages? Don't get gay married, etc' line of thought doesn't apply here. That's a completely different argument.

[Brite]

If you have sex, you accept the fact that , even with birth control, there is a chance that you will become pregnant. Why is this so hard to grasp? Sorry ladies, you opened your legs. If you create a life by doing so, which is an amazing gift that too few women appreciate, how can you treat that life as inconsequential? This, of course is aimed at consenting adults and not meant to apply to victims of crimes.

 

Gift? It's a curse to some. Sex could equal pregnancy. Like driving could equal a fatal crash. Should everyone stop driving then? What is wrong with simply not wanting to have kids and that you don't feel ready?? Sex is an important bond. And a fetus could turn into a tumor or calcium mass, but they're still alive but not human. Are you against tumors being removed?

 

 

*Calls shinytomato*

Edited November 17, 2011 by GhostChilli

[Kestra15]

Nah. You're reading too much into it. If you can make an informed descision and can deal with the consequences, I say have all the sex you want. 10x a day for all I care.... I'm just tired of hearing some women whining about becoming pregnant being a "crisis" and such, when it was avoidable.

As are most crises. If we were psychics.

[Brite]

. I'm just tired of hearing some women whining about becoming pregnant being a "crisis" and such, when it was avoidable.

 

Not really. What do you expect them to do then? Keep the child as a consequence and end up hating them and they both suffer?

[Sadako]

I made many of these points in the old thread, but of course it's gone now...

 

Regarding abortion as birth control: There is no such thing as the girl who gets an abortion every month because she can't be arsed to get birth control. She is a mythical figure invented to muddle this argument. For one thing (and I'm talking about in the US here) a single abortion costs, at the very least, ten to twenty times the money that a month's supply of almost any kind of birth control costs. For another, the places where these mythical girls would have to go to get these abortions all provide those other forms of birth control, often at reduced cost or for free, and would certainly force these mythical girls to listen to counseling on those methods before providing the abortion. And finally, there is no such thing as a doctor irresponsible enough to allow that to happen, and there are not enough abortion providers per capita in this country to go to a new one every month. Is is simply impossible that anyone anywhere uses abortion as a regular monthly form of birth control.

 

Regarding abstinence: I am a 29-year-old woman. I've been living with my boyfriend-ish/husband-ish character for six years. We have a house, we pay bills (I paid for my IUD outright), and we take care of ourselves. No-one should have the right to tell us what we should or shouldn't do in our own bedroom, and, by extension, if our very reliable form of birth control fails, no-one should have the right to tell me what my doctor and I can do in my own uterus.

 

I made this point in the other thread, too: if I'm the kind of woman who could kill her own child, why would anyone want to force me to have one?

 

And finally:

 

...if a 12 year old girl reads this thread she will get the idea that pregnancy is a torture and that she might die or go crazy or many other possibilities when in fact majority of women go through normal pregnancy with obvious physical strains on their bodies but hardly something that can be considered a torture.

 

For some women, it IS torture, and I don't think anyone who doesn't have a uterus has the right to discount or disbelieve that.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Sadako

[Kestra15]

Regarding abortion as birth control: There is no such thing as the girl who gets an abortion every month because she can't be arsed to get birth control. She is a mythical figure invented to muddle this argument.

And you're wrong. My sister met such a girl during her own free abortion.

[Sadako]

Oh, I forgot to add one of the important parts of my argument: that any girl who claims to do so is delusional or is lying to get attention.

 

I suppose you're right, though, I can't really say with certainty that there's no such thing, it just makes so little logical, medical, and financial sense that if there is such a thing she should probably be locked up for her own protection. But not for having abortions.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Sadako

[Kestra15]

Oh, I forgot to add one of the important parts of my argument: that any girl who claims to do so is delusional or is lying to get attention.

Again, wrong. It happens.

[Sadako]

Okay, so I'm wrong about a sweeping generalization based not on real humans but on logic. And your point?

[Kestra15]

Okay, so I'm wrong about a sweeping generalization based not on real humans but on logic. And your point?

That it was a bad assumption.

 

See, unfortunately there are girls out there lazy/stupid enough not to bother with the contraception and preventative methods and see the free abortion clinics as a much more cost-effective method - and then ignore the doctor's advice to not have sex for eight weeks because after all, what does a fully-qualified doctor know about reproduction?

[Layn]

That it was a bad assumption.

 

See, unfortunately there are girls out there lazy/stupid enough not to bother with the contraception and preventative methods and see the free abortion clinics as a much more cost-effective method - and then ignore the doctor's advice to not have sex for eight weeks because after all, what does a fully-qualified doctor know about reproduction?

I'd say that the fact that there are girls out there who think that is just another reason abortion is necessary. Do we really want these girls spreading their genes?

[Kestra15]

I'd say that the fact that there are girls out there who think that is just another reason abortion is necessary. Do we really want these girls spreading their genes?

No. Hence my proficiency with a shotgun.

[Sadako]

So, are you saying that an abortion argument should be conducted starting from the assumption that there are a bunch of Bad Girls out there doing Bad Things and Getting Away With It and that that should be Stopped At All Costs? Because my point with that fallacious argument was that that is a mean and bad place to start a conversation about abortion. Honestly from what I know and from where you claim to get your information (secondhand hearsay), neither of us can honestly say that we know we're right: my flawed argument may not be 100% accurate, but I still think that's a bad place to start a discussion about abortion.

[Kestra15]

So, are you saying that an abortion argument should be conducted starting from the assumption that there are a bunch of Bad Girls out there doing Bad Things and Getting Away With It and that that should be Stopped At All Costs? Because my point with that fallacious argument was that that is a mean and bad place to start a conversation about abortion. Honestly from what I know and from where you claim to get your information (secondhand hearsay), neither of us can honestly say that we know we're right: my flawed argument may not be 100% accurate, but I still think that's a bad place to start a discussion about abortion.

Now you are just being silly. I was simply pointing out a flaw in your own argument. You're now simply making things up.

 

As for my information? Oh, if only I worked in the medical field and was in a relationship with someone else who worked in the medical field, and that the vast majority of my friends were also various medical professionals...

[diannethegeek]

No. Hence my proficiency with a shotgun.

I'm going to assume this was a joke, but it was in very poor taste. The idea of killing a woman rather than letting her get an abortion happens far too often to be funny for me.

[Nureyev]

Dear Lord. I knew I should have stayed out of this thread

 

Y'all have effectively missed the point and twisted things up quite nicely. All I was trying to put across is that people should have ACCOUNTABILITY for their actions. Not that they shouldn't have sex. Or remove a tumor (!!! honestly??? common now). Or bond with their girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/lover/male escort. Or drive. Just have COMMON SENSE and perhaps not undervalue a new life, and simply see it as a crisis. No one has the right to tell anyone what to do unless what they are doing is harming someone else. I'm quite surprised my post was picked apart so vehemently; I didn't think I was being that controversial in suggesting such things. Lesson learned. <.<

I said my opinion and you say yours but please don't write more into what I wrote than I did.

 

[Kestra15]

Dear Lord. I knew I should have stayed out of this thread

 

Y'all have effectively missed the point and twisted things up quite nicely. All I was trying to put across is that people should have ACCOUNTABILITY for their actions. Not that they shouldn't have sex. Or remove a tumor (!!! honestly??? common now). Or bond with their girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/lover/male escort. Or drive. Just have COMMON SENSE and perhaps not undervalue a new life, and simply see it as a crisis. No one has the right to tell anyone what to do unless what they are doing is harming someone else. I'm quite surprised my post was picked apart so vehemently; I didn't think I was being that controversial in suggesting such things. Lesson learned.  <.<

I said my opinion and you say yours but please don't write more into what I wrote than I did.

Your words were that if someone isn't ready for a child, they should not have sex. Next time, if you explain it a bit more clearly, then your point may be more effectively communicated. We can only go by what you type.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Kestra15

[choco566]

I actually wrote a paper about abortion before. I wanted to stay neutral about the topic, as I'm neither for it or against it, but my teacher made me pick. I just chose against it because, sadly, my family is a bunch of over-religious Catholics. I knew if I chose to go for it, I'd be lectured until the ends of the Earth on how bad it is and it's bloody murder and it's horrid and inhumane and blah blah blah blah.

 

So basically, if a woman wants to get an abortion because she couldn't afford a child or couldn't bear giving them up for adoption, by all means, she can. If she wants to support the baby no matter what and nurture the child with a healthy life, she can.

 

@Sadoko: By the way, I was twelve when I wrote that essay and read up about abortion. And I read this thread when I was twelve too. I still want a child of my own when I get older and I'm married.

Edited November 17, 2011 by choco566

[Brite]

I'd say that the fact that there are girls out there who think that is just another reason abortion is necessary. Do we really want these girls spreading their genes?

As goes that saying of three generations of idiots is enough.

[Nureyev]

Your words were that if someone isn't ready for a child, they should not have sex. Next time, if you explain it a bit more sincerely, then your point may be more effectively communicated. We can only go by what you type.

Well if you put it that way .... lol sounds like good advice to me but.....

We all have our own opinions and nobody's ever going to change theirs. I really think that a child needs to be considered as a valid possible consequence of sex, and that issue looked squarely in the eye when one wants to, uh, do the deed. Ofc the truth is at the age this normally happens few people are really qualified to think about this realistically. I certainly wouldn't want any woman to raise a child she didn't want. In a perfect world, the two of them would understand this, use protection, and if it failed and she became pregnant would be able to decide what to do knowing there are plenty of options other than abortion. But yeah, good luck with finding sensible people.

[skinst]

Dear Lord. I knew I should have stayed out of this thread

 

Y'all have effectively missed the point and twisted things up quite nicely. All I was trying to put across is that people should have ACCOUNTABILITY for their actions. Not that they shouldn't have sex. Or remove a tumor (!!! honestly??? common now). Or bond with their girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/lover/male escort. Or drive. Just have COMMON SENSE and perhaps not undervalue a new life, and simply see it as a crisis. No one has the right to tell anyone what to do unless what they are doing is harming someone else. I'm quite surprised my post was picked apart so vehemently; I didn't think I was being that controversial in suggesting such things. Lesson learned. <.<

I said my opinion and you say yours but please don't write more into what I wrote than I did.

Having an abortion is taking accountability.

 

At the moment, if I were to become pregnant, it WOULD be a crisis. I cannot raise a child right now, no way in hell. I am not financially, physically or mentally ready for one, despite my age demographic saying so.

 

And what about woman who literally have a phobia of being pregnant? To them, it would almost be like getting handed the death sentence.

 

Also, the 'value' of that so called new life is what I place on it until it's born. It's in my body, its feeding off of it. I can choose to call it a miracle baby or a parasite depending on how I feel towards it. Scientifically, the latter is more accurate than the former.

 

What do we do with other living parasites that we don't want in our body? We kill them. Abortion is no different.

[Nureyev]

OK tbh that was enough to give me nightmares.....

 

I suppose that's what it boils down to.

 

Is it A) a new life or B ) a parasite to be squashed...... women must be hard-wired into one of these beliefs or the other. *backs away* Damn Internet, you scary.... 0.0

Edited November 17, 2011 by Nureyev

[skinst]

Is it A) a new life or B ) a parasite to be squashed...... women must be hard-wired into one of these beliefs or the other. *backs away* Damn Internet, you scary.... 0.0

More like, it comes down to what's important: the facts. The fact is is a fetus is scientifically classified as a parasite. That's the type of organism it is. It's only a precious little baby to those who choose to see it that way.

 

Also, the internet is far scarier. This place is relatively tame compared to the Pro-Birth nuts. THEY are the scary ones.