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7 hours ago, Zeditha said:

Sex =/= consent to parenthood, but helping to pay for a child =/= parenthood.

 

The man isn't the one who has to stay and care for the child. That job is almost always given to the woman.

 

To run with some of the logic in this thread - if you don't want to PAY for a child, don't create one. If you aren't prepared to chip in for any consequences of your horniness, don't have sex. But also - don't expect to have any say in whether or not a woman can have an abortion. MOST to the point, no man has to go through pregnancy. No man will ever understand what that's like. Even if a man wants to take on the child full time at the end of it - which some claim that they do - he does not have the right to force a woman to carry to term for him.

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17 hours ago, Zeditha said:

Sex =/= consent to parenthood, but helping to pay for a child =/= parenthood.

 

The man isn't the one who has to stay and care for the child. That job is almost always given to the woman.

 

Oh, so you believe it's only a womans job? So the man can do whatever he wants, just drop the kid if he don't want to take care of it anymore and just run? This is the EXACT thought process that makes me worried to even have a child. People support this kind of crap. It takes TWO PEOPLE to have a child, if it's by donor, fine that's the womans choice to be a single mother. However, if it's naturally done, no the guy can suck it up and be a man. That's just the end of it. I hate men who think this way, I've had a friend go through this not once but about 3 times. When is it going to stop? Why can't men take care of responsibilities or are they just now deemed walking sperm donors? When did this mind set become acceptable? It is not and never will be easy to be a single parent, why anyone believes it's just fine for a woman to be like that and a man who was involved to be able to drop them like they meant nothing isn't healthy. It's sick and neglectful. If you really do not want to be involved in a childs life, don't have unprotected sex (yes I know it can still fail).

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13 hours ago, Daxillionyx said:

 

One thing I will never understand is when people (who are, let's be blunt, pro-abortion) compare a fetus to an intruder or parasite. To answer your question, a guest someone whose arrival is prepared for. And intruder is someone whose entrance was not prepared for. If someone breaks into my house, they are an intruder. If someone comes and I have at least an inkling of an idea that they will arrive, they are a guest.

 

The female body, whether the mother is in tune with her menstrual cycle or not, knows when a baby has the chance to come. The body prepares for it (ovulation, thickening of uteren walls, etc). It's more like an expected guest in that regard. The body does not prepare for things like, say, tapeworms. That's a true parasite. A nice place is not prepared for it to stay inside the body, like with a baby, and the body does not prepare a means of food and waste exchange to accommodate the tapeworm, like it does for babies and the placenta. The body is always caught off guard.

A parasite is exactly that. No one, the body nor the woman, prepares for it to come. It's where it is not supposed to be, eating what it's not supposed to.

A fetus is prepared for by the body, or by both the mom and the body, in a special place with special accommodations. It isn't a parasite in that regard, and no one has ever made that comparison make sense to me.

 

By that logic rape is just normal sex, because despite the person not wanting the act to be done their bodies react the same way it does when about to have consensual sex. The whole difference is that one is wanted and another is unwanted. A woman that does not want to have a child will see it as an intruder within her body, she will see it as a parasite despite the fact her body is capable of carrying it. Just like someone that does not want to have sex but is having it forced upon them will see it as rape.

 

Also, by definition a parasite is an organism that lives in or on another organism (the host) and survives by stealing nutrients at the expense of the host. That is technically what an embryo/fetus is because all it's nutrients are taken from food the mother eats, requiring her to eat more to keep them both alive.

Edited by Cecona

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7 hours ago, demonicvampiregirl said:

 

Oh, so you believe it's only a womans job? So the man can do whatever he wants, just drop the kid if he don't want to take care of it anymore and just run? This is the EXACT thought process that makes me worried to even have a child. People support this kind of crap. It takes TWO PEOPLE to have a child, if it's by donor, fine that's the womans choice to be a single mother. However, if it's naturally done, no the guy can suck it up and be a man. That's just the end of it. I hate men who think this way, I've had a friend go through this not once but about 3 times. When is it going to stop? Why can't men take care of responsibilities or are they just now deemed walking sperm donors? When did this mind set become acceptable? It is not and never will be easy to be a single parent, why anyone believes it's just fine for a woman to be like that and a man who was involved to be able to drop them like they meant nothing isn't healthy. It's sick and neglectful. If you really do not want to be involved in a childs life, don't have unprotected sex (yes I know it can still fail).

 

I think you misunderstood me. The fact is that if a woman wants or is forced to carry her baby to term, the father may still want to have nothing to do with the child - and they shouldn't have to care for them. As was said, sex =/= consent to parenthood. But being forced to at least HELP should make it at least a little bit easier for the woman.

And while I heavily dislike that childcare is almost always burdened on the woman, it is a fact in our current society. And it is a lot easier for the man to just run away from the child than the mother, who has to give birth to it or have an abortion.

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21 hours ago, Daxillionyx said:

To answer your question, a guest someone whose arrival is prepared for. And intruder is someone whose entrance was not prepared for. If someone breaks into my house, they are an intruder. If someone comes and I have at least an inkling of an idea that they will arrive, they are a guest.

No, a guest is someone you want to have there. An intruder is someone you don't want to have there. Compare a uterus with a home. You have a home, so by your logic you should accept someone moving in. Eat your food and sleep in your bed. Your home is made for someone to live there, right. Have a lock on your door? Doesn't matter since contraceptions fail and you end up with someone living in your home/uterus anyway.

 

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On 2017-08-26 at 11:53 AM, Daxillionyx said:

 

One thing I will never understand is when people (who are, let's be blunt, pro-abortion) compare a fetus to an intruder or parasite. To answer your question, a guest someone whose arrival is prepared for. And intruder is someone whose entrance was not prepared for. If someone breaks into my house, they are an intruder. If someone comes and I have at least an inkling of an idea that they will arrive, they are a guest.

 

The female body, whether the mother is in tune with her menstrual cycle or not, knows when a baby has the chance to come. The body prepares for it (ovulation, thickening of uteren walls, etc). It's more like an expected guest in that regard. The body does not prepare for things like, say, tapeworms. That's a true parasite. A nice place is not prepared for it to stay inside the body, like with a baby, and the body does not prepare a means of food and waste exchange to accommodate the tapeworm, like it does for babies and the placenta. The body is always caught off guard.

A parasite is exactly that. No one, the body nor the woman, prepares for it to come. It's where it is not supposed to be, eating what it's not supposed to.

A fetus is prepared for by the body, or by both the mom and the body, in a special place with special accommodations. It isn't a parasite in that regard, and no one has ever made that comparison make sense to me.

 

I am not "pro-abortion". I am pro-CHOICE. In terms of whether or not to have an abortion - I support the woman's right to choose. If I were "pro-abortion" I'd be going around telling people to have abortions. And a foetus IS a parasite. Google parasite.

 

Quote

an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.

 

That is exactly what a foetus does. In one of my (carried to term) pregnancies I became dangerously anaemic for that very reason. The foetus stole all my iron. I could have died. Your average welcome visitor wouldn't do that. Wouldn't steal all the food in your fridge and let you starve.

 

12 hours ago, Cecona said:

 

By that logic rape is just normal sex, because despite the person not wanting the act to be done their bodies react the same way it does when about to have consensual sex. The whole difference is that one is wanted and another is unwanted. A woman that does not want to have a child will see it as an intruder within her body, she will see it as a parasite despite the fact her body is capable of carrying it. Just like someone that does not want to have sex but is having it forced upon them will see it as rape.

 

This all reminds me of that ghastly US politician who said that if you were raped, your body would know not to allow a pregnancy to take root., Yeah RIGHT.

 

7 hours ago, Zeditha said:

 

I think you misunderstood me. The fact is that if a woman wants or is forced to carry her baby to term, the father may still want to have nothing to do with the child - and they shouldn't have to care for them. As was said, sex =/= consent to parenthood. But being forced to at least HELP should make it at least a little bit easier for the woman.

And while I heavily dislike that childcare is almost always burdened on the woman, it is a fact in our current society. And it is a lot easier for the man to just run away from the child than the mother, who has to give birth to it or have an abortion.

 

Exactly.

 

4 hours ago, CatCreature said:

No, a guest is someone you want to have there. An intruder is someone you don't want to have there. Compare a uterus with a home. You have a home, so by your logic you should accept someone moving in. Eat your food and sleep in your bed. Your home is made for someone to live there, right. Have a lock on your door? Doesn't matter since contraceptions fail and you end up with someone living in your home/uterus anyway.
 

 

Do you maybe get THIS,  Daxillionyx ? It's exactly how it is. Have you ever BEEN pregnant ? Even during a very much wanted pregnancy you sometimes get to feeling you've been taken over by an alien, and wish it would Go Away.

 

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19 hours ago, Zeditha said:

 

I think you misunderstood me. The fact is that if a woman wants or is forced to carry her baby to term, the father may still want to have nothing to do with the child - and they shouldn't have to care for them. As was said, sex =/= consent to parenthood. But being forced to at least HELP should make it at least a little bit easier for the woman.

And while I heavily dislike that childcare is almost always burdened on the woman, it is a fact in our current society. And it is a lot easier for the man to just run away from the child than the mother, who has to give birth to it or have an abortion.

 

Yep, totally misunderstood. Sorry, I was also very tired at the time so I can't say that helped much at all. Dx

 

But yeah, I can agree. I just cannot get why guys can't own up to it and that's a giant fear of mine is finding a guy like that. :/ I don't want kids but still, things happen even if you don't want them to. All the medical advances sometimes still can't help with that.

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21 hours ago, fuzzbucket said:

Do you maybe get THIS,  Daxillionyx ? It's exactly how it is. Have you ever BEEN pregnant ? Even during a very much wanted pregnancy you sometimes get to feeling you've been taken over by an alien, and wish it would Go Away.

Don't you mean Alien with capital A? I think giving birth is what Chestbursters are all about. ;)

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8 hours ago, CatCreature said:

Don't you mean Alien with capital A? I think giving birth is what Chestbursters are all about. ;)

 

:blink: ARRRGGGGH. *runs away screaming*

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On 8/26/2017 at 8:53 AM, Daxillionyx said:

 

One thing I will never understand is when people (who are, let's be blunt, pro-abortion) compare a fetus to an intruder or parasite. To answer your question, a guest someone whose arrival is prepared for. And intruder is someone whose entrance was not prepared for. If someone breaks into my house, they are an intruder. If someone comes and I have at least an inkling of an idea that they will arrive, they are a guest.

A fetus is prepared for by the body, or by both the mom and the body, in a special place with special accommodations. It isn't a parasite in that regard, and no one has ever made that comparison make sense to me.

Your body is constantly prepared for parasites too. It even sometimes makes special places just for them. Ad not just a little, like everyone's body is entirely built around being prepared for parasites and disease. Probably even moreso than reproduction.

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I will just throw in my view about this:

(Desclaimer: I mean with 'Mother' or 'Father' the role, not any gender)

 

I dont care who got pregnant (man/woman/nonbinary/star/homeless/white/black/Alien/Your Dragon) or how it happend, thats totally meaningless for me.

BUT

The person who is pregnant, who now carries that mess of cells that MIGHT grow into a intelligent being should have the freedom of will and choice to simply say: Yes or No to this thing.

 

Its a cluster of cells, unable to make a choice, unable to show it is alive and not some wierd kind of tumor growing in a strange place, so it should not be important or considered priority.

Its like asking a chair if you are allowed to sit on it! It will not talk back or be angry at you.

 

Which means the 'mother' alone should have the choice to keep the child or not, but again, this would also mean the 'father' should have the choice to take the role of the father or not, he should not be left out but again cant choose if the mother keeps it or not.

I'm not good explaining this, i guess, so here a simple chart for my view to this.

Mother says No, Father says No = abortion

Mother says No, Father says Yes = abortion

Mother says Yes, Father says No = no abortion; but the father refuse to take his role (dont need to pay/dont have right to see child)

Mother says Yes, Father says Yes = no abortion; CONGRATULATION YOU ARE GOING TO BE PARENTS

 

Reminder: That choice is done before birth. You cant later say no and throw responsebilities out of the window, oh no, you should be bound by law to it. (but sadly, its not the case)

 

So yeah, my view to this, thanks for reading o/

Edited by Yubelchen

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Mother says Yes, Father says No = no abortion; but the father refuse to take his role (dont need to pay/dont have right to see child)

 

I don't really think that's fair. ^^" Imagine you're pregnant and don't feel up to raising a child yet. Now the father gets the choice if he wants to get out of it by paying or not - that's an easy decision for him: Just say no and everything is fine for him.
It's not so easy for the woman who wants to get out of it: She has to choose between kiling or not killing a baby.

I don't judge people who have abortions, but I would never have one myself (unless the baby would be so gravely disabled that it would have to suffer all its life).
Now, if I got pregnant and the father just said: "Well, bad luck. See you in 18 years, or maybe never...!", I would NOT consider that as being fair. He gets out the easy way and leaves me with the choice to kill or not kill a child.

Of course it's not entirely fair for a father who doesn't have any influence on the decision of becoming a parent or not. I see that and I would feel sorry for any man whose girlfriend wants to give birth to a baby which he doesn't want and can't afford to pay for. However, to some extend, I would expect him to take part in raising the child anyway. At least he should provide help to pay for child care - or arrange his family to help, or take the child for 3 days a week, or whatever... so the mother has a better chance to make a living for herself and the child.

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The father should not be able to duck out and abrogate all responsibility. That kind of reasoning is the reason that so many men feel they don't need to worry about condoms and the rest - because they reckon they can just walk. NOT OK, guys. Men are equally responsible for the baby they helped make, and have to share the costs if it is carried to term - whether or not they choose to be involved any further than financially.

 

Sure I feel sorry for him if he never wanted to be a parent - but he had the choice not to get into the situation where that was a possibility.

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10 hours ago, Hermeline said:

 

I don't really think that's fair. ^^" Imagine you're pregnant and don't feel up to raising a child yet.

Then i would abort it, simple as that. For me, its just a cluster of cells, if i dont like it, i would gladly just kick it out. Problem solved, lesson learned and my life is not ruined.

10 hours ago, Hermeline said:

Of course it's not entirely fair for a father who doesn't have any influence on the decision of becoming a parent or not. I see that and I would feel sorry for any man whose girlfriend wants to give birth to a baby which he doesn't want and can't afford to pay for. However, to some extend, I would expect him to take part in raising the child anyway. At least he should provide help to pay for child care - or arrange his family to help, or take the child for 3 days a week, or whatever... so the mother has a better chance to make a living for herself and the child.

Why? Its like your mom and dad buy a dog and you HATE dogs and they still force you to go out with it. Is it fair? No. Can you do something against it? Yes, just refuse to do so, you never agreed to having a dog or taking it out for a walk so you simply dont care for said dog.

Also, do you really want to chain a person to yourself, for paying a ton of money for something they never wanted? Ruin thier life with that only to raise a new life that might still be ruined because you are alone?

 

57 minutes ago, fuzzbucket said:

The father should not be able to duck out and abrogate all responsibility. That kind of reasoning is the reason that so many men feel they don't need to worry about condoms and the rest - because they reckon they can just walk. NOT OK, guys. Men are equally responsible for the baby they helped make, and have to share the costs if it is carried to term - whether or not they choose to be involved any further than financially.

 

Sure I feel sorry for him if he never wanted to be a parent - but he had the choice not to get into the situation where that was a possibility.

'Men are equally responsible for the baby they helped make', what if the mother poke a hole in all condoms? Lied about taking medicine against it? 'Helping' is not a fitting word for cases like that, sure, they gave genetic materials to make the baby possible, but was it what he wanted?

 

Men can and are also victims of unwanted parenthood and just like women and women at least have the final word on it thanks to abortion. A Guy cant force a woman to abort it when he never wanted a child, but he can give in to the womans choice but stay completly out of anything. Its not like you would die without the money he would give, family and the state can help you out with it too. And dont forget you can still work, let family and friend take care of the child and go to work, its very simple and pretty much normal i think.

And if the guy would 'duck out' of this, you clearly didnt talked about that topic or he is just a terrible person, same goes for women who force men to be father of thier child. Communication is important.

 

Of course, as i said, 'ducking out' is not what i mean and wanted to say with it. The choice should be bound to them, sign a paper with the choice and if someone thinks to change thier mind: Nope!

Sure, life can change fast, but having a baby is not simple thing and you should think about it good and well before doing said choice.

 

Its just, Men should also be given a choice. Make both equal, it can always happen in todays times by accident like when drinking too much and we should take the gift of todays medicine to change fates.

Think like a Hamster: Hamster sacrifice a litter (kill and eat them) to have enough strength to survive and give birth to a litter the next time they can, which has in most cases a better chance of living and surviving.

Edited by Yubelchen

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31 minutes ago, fuzzbucket said:

Sure I feel sorry for him if he never wanted to be a parent - but he had the choice not to get into the situation where that was a possibility.

 

This sounds like "this person shouldn't have had sex if they didn't want to take the risk of having a baby". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you wouldn't say this to a woman. So why say it to a man?

 

Men and women should have the same right to have sex if they want to, and the same responsibility to make sure they use protection if they don't want it to result in a pregnancy. And if it still happens, they should have the same choice whether or not they want to be parents - with the one exception (which I think is unfair, but can't be fixed) that the person with the uterus might have an abortion even if the other person would have wanted the baby.

 

(The situation can never be exactly the same for both partners because obviously the baby is just in one person's body, so... that's a problem. But I think we should try to make it so that both have the same rights and responsibilities in as many aspects as possible.)

 

And while I was typing this, Yubelchen already posted most of what I wanted to say.

 

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42 minutes ago, Confused Cat said:

 

This sounds like "this person shouldn't have had sex if they didn't want to take the risk of having a baby". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you wouldn't say this to a woman. So why say it to a man?

 

Men and women should have the same right to have sex if they want to, and the same responsibility to make sure they use protection if they don't want it to result in a pregnancy. And if it still happens, they should have the same choice whether or not they want to be parents - with the one exception (which I think is unfair, but can't be fixed) that the person with the uterus might have an abortion even if the other person would have wanted the baby.

 

(The situation can never be exactly the same for both partners because obviously the baby is just in one person's body, so... that's a problem. But I think we should try to make it so that both have the same rights and responsibilities in as many aspects as possible.)

 

And while I was typing this, Yubelchen already posted most of what I wanted to say.

 

 

I would say it to a woman too, actually. If you have sex, you are running the "risk" of making a baby. You both HAVE to bear that in mind when you embark on it. Allow for that possibility. Be prepared to know that you may end up with a child if you - the woman - aren't up for an abortion and the unexpected happens. What I was getting at was that a woman cannot walk in the same way that a man can - and just because he CAN does not mean he should be able to.

 

I will agree that if a woman deliberately sabotages condoms, then she deserves to be on her own. Just as if a man substitutes ASA for the BCP in a woman's bathroom, he deserves ALL the bills !

 

But you say yourself:

Quote

(The situation can never be exactly the same for both partners because obviously the baby is just in one person's body, so... that's a problem. But I think we should try to make it so that both have the same rights and responsibilities in as many aspects as possible.)

 

Exactly. They BOTH make the child; they BOTH have responsibility and they BOTH pay. It is tough if the woman wants an abortion - I don't know what the best answer there is for the man who wants to keep the child - but you cannot force someone to carry to term if she doesn't want to, no matter what.

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'I don't know what the best answer there is for the man who wants to keep the child'

- Adopt one for gods sake, it doesnt matter if the child is 'not yours' if you want a child, im sure any state can give you like a whole catalog of them XD

 

32 minutes ago, fuzzbucket said:

I will agree that if a woman deliberately sabotages condoms, then she deserves to be on her own. Just as if a man substitutes ASA for the BCP in a woman's bathroom, he deserves ALL the bills !

I dont understand what ASA or BCP should mean, wikipedia gives out like 50 possible things and the only thing i know that could fit is a C++ scource code XD Cound you please explain? Thanks!

 

But back to topic: That totally sounds pretty much like hate against men. Men should have kinda the same choice as women in that case, sure, they dont give birth to the child but still pay for it with money.

The only difference between man and woman in that case is truely just that she carries the baby out, thats it.

- Men and woman can still say 'no' to raising it and give it free to adoption (which i find is stupid as hell, give birth to a new life just to throw it away? Better not make it in the first place!)

- Whoever chooses to raise the child, the other parent has to pay child support for it.

-> So both should be able to make a cut and dont deal with it anyway if they dont want to, its not nice to do so, but if you truely didnt wanted a child anyway and got tricked/whatever and you dont want it to ruin your life, you should get out of it. So i would say that both a parents should have a talk and sign a paper so they are bound to thier choice.

 

I mean, if the mom is okay to raise the child alone, because they wanted to and is fine that the dad, who didnt wanted it in the first place, is completly out of this, its great for both!

If someone changed thier mind somehow, they are well, ****ed. Bound by the choice you did.

 

I saw many, many parents just end up barking at eachother and thier children crying because of such things, they learn they were unwanted in the first place and are just a burden for both. So i find it better to be wanted by one parent and dont have to deal with the other who truely dont wanted anything to do with them, nobody should experience such fighting.

Edited by Yubelchen

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I'm not sure that a single person would be able to adopt a child, honestly... The policies for a lot of agencies are very strict. I had a coworker who was denied the ability to adopt simply because she made more money than her husband.

Edited by Kith

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1 hour ago, Yubelchen said:

I dont understand what ASA or BCP should mean, wikipedia gives out like 50 possible things and the only thing i know that could fit is a C++ scource code XD Cound you please explain? Thanks!

 

(MAN I hate that we can't use BBcode...)

ASA = Acetylsalicylic Acid, also known as aspirin.

BCP = Birth Control Pill. Sorry.

 

I absolutely do not hate men. But when a couple have sex, they are BOTH responsible for any consequences, is all.

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A coworker of mine would have elected to terminate IF she had known she was pregnant. Which is scary in of itself because she did not appear pregnant and she woke up the next day, was at a friends house where she suddenly had a baby in their bathtub. (paramedics were called) She said something about how the baby was placed inthe placenta prevented showing, also her cycle did continue, although erratic. Its like my worst nightmare realised. I wish I was a fly on the wall when she called in to say "I need maternity leave."

 

She had to deal with the uncomfortable decision to keep or place up for adoption.

 

I am mentioning this because of the analogy of intruder or guest... this was definitely an intruder. As much as I dislike infants, I can make an exception for him -  he is kind of cute.

 

for me, if I found out I was pregnant tomorrow, I would be choosing termination. Babies are not for me, and I am not willing to make the sacrifices for a baby, nor do I want to find myself denying it something. I would not choose to wait it out and put up for adoption, because childbirth is not 100% safe, people die from it, its a lot of energy, time and stress, I am not willing to invest in. Not saying my decision is absolute, but at my age, it pretty much is now.

Edited by Starscream

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@fuzzbucket Thanks for explanation!

And yes, that is truely disgusting trickery, i agree with you on that.

 

And damn starscream, that is truely a nightmare story, if i would find out that i am pregnant, i would do the same. Not only because it is not 100% safe (problems happen much less thanks to medicine today, but people CAN still die from that) but also i dont want to have my life ruined.

Yes 'ruined' for me, i´m selfish, greedy and want to enjoy life completly, other people can have babies, that is not my job and nobody can force me too, not even some broken condom or some baby pill that just said '99% safe? Guess what, you are the 1%!'.

 

I also have a friend of mine who has a strange phobia called 'Tokophobia' or 'fear of pregnancy and childbirth', she is truely scared about having sex and anything about it and doesnt trust medicine against it like the baby pill and many other methods. Didnt heard about that phobia until i met her and looked it up, didnt believed it at first and thought she just doesnt want kids just like me, but that is a whole other level.

And stories like that, starscream, is THE nightmare fuel to create such phobias.

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@Starscream That's so weird, my mom's old coworker had that happen and I've never heard of anyone else who had that experience. It's the weirdest and worst thing... Usually there are pretty clear signs that you may be pregnant, but not everyone has morning sickness, not everyone's period stops, and not everyone "shows" noticeably... That is like the creepiest thought in the world, that you could possibly be pregnant and not know it until it's actually born.

 

If I were to ever get pregnant (which would only happen in the case of rape, since I am strictly a lesbian) I would indeed abort, not because I want to but because I'd have to. I know my limitations and I know that I am not, have never been, and possibly will never *be* mentally stable enough to carry a fetus inside me for nine months. It would endanger my mental health to the point where there is a very real possibility I would attempt suicide (yet again). I simply don't have the mental strength to go through that, and I'm sorry but I will not endanger my sanity and possibly my life just so a fetus can live.

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Oh it can happen. I used to work for a doctor; there were three such cases in the time I was there. One had always had a very irregular cycle, but the others just carried on as normal, and of course there were no scans or anything because you don't go for scans unless you know you're... Two gave birth having had no idea; the third realised at about 7 months, when FINALLY her jeans didn't fit.

 

Also, as a matter of interest, my niece just went to the doctor two days ago - they had tried IVF briefly, but gave up last year as it interfered with some meds she has to take. She wasn't feeling  very well and wondered if it was the beginning of menopause.

 

Nope; she's 16 weeks gone :) She's delighted - but - you really don't always know.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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