Abortion

[Trope]

I just don't get why so many countries and states are against decent sex ed.

 

I hated my Catholic school (never felt at home there), but their sex ed was amazing. When I was 15, we had a three-day sex ed trip. We talked about everything: sex, abstinence, birth control, what to do if your partner/you has an STD, consent, ... Abortion was discussed as well. We got an explanation about what abortion is and while the school perhaps put a little too much stress on the fact that abortion is Not Good, they stressed that it is the individual's choice and to never judge someone who wants one. I really liked that part.

 

We also had a yearly sex ed day where we had class discussions, but the school also invited public speakers. Those were rape victims (both male and female), people with HIV and other STDs, ... I still remember the woman who talked about the baby she gave up for adoption, her doubts: had she done the right thing, was her baby alright? The second speaker that year was a woman who'd had an abortion, and while she regretted the fact that she'd been careless with her birth control, she did not regret the abortion itself. More like, she was angry at herself for letting it get that far.

 

I won't say that the woman who had the abortion had it easy, but comparing the two, it seems that the woman who chose adoption suffered a whole lot more. I learned that day there's no such thing a 'just give your baby up'. It's something you carry with you for life.

[Cecona]

I just don't get why so many countries and states are against decent sex ed.

 

I hated my Catholic school (never felt at home there), but their sex ed was amazing. When I was 15, we had a three-day sex ed trip. We talked about everything: sex, abstinence, birth control, what to do if your partner/you has an STD, consent, ... Abortion was discussed as well. We got an explanation about what abortion is and while the school perhaps put a little too much stress on the fact that abortion is Not Good, they stressed that it is the individual's choice and to never judge someone who wants one. I really liked that part.

 

We also had a yearly sex ed day where we had class discussions, but the school also invited public speakers. Those were rape victims (both male and female), people with HIV and other STDs, ... I still remember the woman who talked about the baby she gave up for adoption, her doubts: had she done the right thing, was her baby alright? The second speaker that year was a woman who'd had an abortion, and while she regretted the fact that she'd been careless with her birth control, she did not regret the abortion itself. More like, she was angry at herself for letting it get that far.

 

I won't say that the woman who had the abortion had it easy, but comparing the two, it seems that the woman who chose adoption suffered a whole lot more. I learned that day there's no such thing a 'just give your baby up'. It's something you carry with you for life.

I don't understand how religious schools can have such comprehensive sex ed and teach every aspect when public schools basically show you a slideshow of STDs, shame those that already had sex, and insist abstinence is the only way.

 

 

Middle school was when my area got the sex ed class, but I ended up throwing up and getting a fever so I didn't get to see it. Other kids told me what it was, an STD slide show. The next sex ed thing was the abstinence assembly I was kicked out of in high school

Edited April 1, 2017 by Cecona

[Erinthebookworm]

We're a rotten society when we stop considering women as people to start treating them a vessels because a still non viable embryo has more personhood than the woman who is, at this very moment, alive.

This here is my whole problem with pro-life people. They're so focused on the baby that the mother becomes this faceless baby vessel and that confuses me to no end. How can these people see living breathing people with feeling and thoughts as just a vessel?

 

My thoughts on abortion align with a lot that I've read in this page.

 

Another thing that bugs me is when people treat abortion as this happy event instead of the heavy choice that it is.

 

I went to a public school and the sex ed was decent enough, I guess. We started learning about it in six grade, where we had gotten the STD slide show, but more in a matter a fact way? Like, it'd have a list of symptoms and things to look out for and a picture to show what it looked liked. I don't remember much, but I do remember being told anatomy in junior high, like where women pee from, what the uterus looks like, what happens during pregnancy, where the ovaries are located, what happens during the menstrual cycle, what a pap test is, and other stuff on the women's side. The men's side was just as informative as well. I don't remember being told about abortions, but that may have just slipped my mind. (I live in Canada, so that may have something to do with it)

 

It baffles me that some women don't even know where they pee from.

 

(Sorry for jumping in, I just wanted to give my thoughts on this topic)

[Starscream]

without reading everything

 

 

Pills are not 100% - something can knock it off course, such as prescriptions - maybe you missed a day and I believe illness can also put things out of whack.

 

Condoms are not 100% effective - because they break...

 

given the fact that some women do whatever is in their power to prevent it, it can still occur.

 

People gripe that it costs tax payer money to do an abortion - (in canada) but on the flip side, whatever the base cost is, would be be more or less than having to support the woman and her unwanted child for 18 years on welfare? (if this occurred before she was able to get herself a college education which can be very costly, and very time consuming - as in can't spend it with family - time consuming) or would terminating until the situation for a family is better.

 

Quite frankly, I could not afford a child right now, or ever I believe, however we are humans, we are animals and we react to some compelling instinctive urges and to commit to abstinence is not as easy as it sounds.

 

To have to go through pregnancy to give up a child, as someone mentioned (I did read some) that's a hell of a choice. And one that can give a person worried, is the child in a loving family, is the child being abused, does the child wonder why they were given up.

 

I support healthy options and choices, be it keeping, adopting or terminating. I do not support it as a birth control (such as repeated abortions) but again that's the woman's choice

 

 

for those who insist the unexpected mothers to carry to term, I feel those people need to put their money where their mouths are help support that unwanted child, should it be adopt it into their family, or give the woman aid for diapers, garments, food or whatever care she or the baby needs - especially if she has aspirations for her and her family's future. (such as a career)

 

What is happening down south of the border where women are being denied birth control (of whatever type) and being forced to carry to term, then being screamed at for being "welfare bums", having their children starved at school by cuts to school lunches and whatnot. And in general making a persons life harder than is necessary - its a travesty.

 

Under no circumstance should a person's religion tell another person who is not of that religion(or even is) what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. If a person of religion does not want an abortion, they don't have to have it.

 

I would recommend she discusses it with her mate, but in no means is that me saying she should ask his permission. If she wants to end it then that is her choice. No woman needs to ask permission. And on the flip side, if he wants her to end it and she wants to carry it, it gets complicated, but again its her choice.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Starscream

[CatCreature]

The other option of keeping the child isn't always the best either, as you cannot guarantee the mother will love the child she was forced to keep when she didn't want to. I remember some time ago (few years) in this forum (not sure if it was this thread or not) a guy that was pro-life shared the story of his younger brother and how his mother didn't want him but was forced to keep him and has neglected the little brother since birth so the guy had a lot to do with raising him. It's a perfect example as to why abortion should be an available option.

Yes, it was in this thread. (page 220) I pointed out to him that his brother was lucky to have someone else loving and caring for him and a lot of unwanted children don't have that luck. He got upset that I used his brother as an example.

 

Under no circumstance should a person's religion tell another person who is not of that religion(or even is) what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. If a person of religion does not want an abortion, they don't have to have it.

 

Funny, I went and Google up some numbers on religion and abortion rate some time back. What I found made me flabbergasted.

 

(Source: here)

 

Who's having abortions (religion)?

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

(Source: here)

 

Abortion Statistics:

The AGI estimates that in 2006 and 2007 that there were 1,206,200 abortions each year.

 

So given the above religious statistics, if the "religious people do not have abortions" argument was to be true, it would require every single athetist and agnostic woman had an abortion every single year in order for abortions to be all due to them. Some would have to have two a year. This is of course wildly unlikely since a good portion of these women are beyond childbearing years.

 

According to the BBC, "Catholic women in the United States are as likely as women in the general population to have an abortion, and 29% more likely than Protestant women." They are quoting research from the Alan Guttmacher Institute.

 

A survey at an abortion clinic found that 40% of women getting an abortion were Catholic, 40% were from other religions and 20% were non-religious. This is even though only about 25% of US people are Catholics.

(Source: here)

[Cecona]

Yes, it was in this thread. (page 220) I pointed out to him that his brother was lucky to have someone else loving and caring for him and a lot of unwanted children don't have that luck. He got upset that I used his brother as an example.

 

 

(Source: here)

 

 

(Source: here)

Honestly I'm not surprised by those statistics, Hypocrisy is wide spread. I'm sure they will argue those were necessary due to rape or an nonviable fetuses but the numbers are far, far too large for that to be true.

[irrelevantindigo]

It's not entirely hypocrisy— a lot of people can be repressed by their religion, especially if it's on the more fundamental side, like protestants and catholics. (As the child of a ex-pastor and a mother who works with catholic schools, I have seen this a lot.) Even if it's a loving community full of good people, it still has some real rigid guidelines. Everyone has their motives for being part of that sort of community. (That or they're stuck in it.) If you're part of a denomination like that, you're potentially under a lot of pressure and if you become pregnant, you don't have much choice other than abortion. It's a huge ordeal otherwise.

Other denominations and religions can be much more lenient or forgiving or accepting. However you want to put it. Either way, they're not under the same pressures and have more support, possibly.

 

To be perfectly honest, I find it sad that a person would have to compromise their beliefs to avoid being... shunned I guess. Unwanted pregnancy is never good, but feeling like you have no choice but abortion solely because of your community's religion is pretty awful.

 

All that being said, it is still a bit hypocritical. I personally believe it to be more ironic that a religious culture that is pro-life and abstinence-til-marriage in nature would also foster an environment where there is no choice but abortion for unplanned pregnancies.

 

edit: typos and clarity ^^"

Edited April 2, 2017 by irrelevantindigo

[Sundew]

I don't really think we should be calling these people hypocrites. Those who did defy their beliefs for an abortion I'm sure experienced a lot of doubt and shame for it. Or perhaps they simply held different beliefs. "Christian" is an incredibly wide umbrella, and not all Christians are pro-life. Judging them as hypocrites just because they fall under that religion, a religion with tons of variations and more modern beliefs (you don't have to be an extremist or conservative to identify as a Christian), is a bit unfair IMO.

[Obscure_Trash]

I don't really think we should be calling these people hypocrites. Those who did defy their beliefs for an abortion I'm sure experienced a lot of doubt and shame for it. Or perhaps they simply held different beliefs. "Christian" is an incredibly wide umbrella, and not all Christians are pro-life. Judging them as hypocrites just because they fall under that religion, a religion with tons of variations and more modern beliefs (you don't have to be an extremist or conservative to identify as a Christian), is a bit unfair IMO.

I agree that there could even be pro-choice Christians included in those numbers, as the numbers don't separate out by anything but religion and if they've had an abortion.

 

If people are interested in hypocrisy, there did used to be a whole site about tales of picketers or their children who doctors who perform abortions gave abortions to/clinic escorts witnessed getting an abortion. I can't find it now, but here's some of the collective tales: http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.o...nti-tales.shtml (Maybe this was the site?)

 

But yeah. There are pro-choice Christians and anti-choice atheists and other non-Christians.

[JavaTigress]

It's not entirely hypocrisy— a lot of people can be repressed by their religion, especially if it's on the more fundamental side, like protestants and catholics. (As the child of a ex-pastor and a mother who works with catholic schools, I have seen this a lot.) Even if it's a loving community full of good people, it still has some real rigid guidelines. Everyone has their motives for being part of that sort of community. (That or they're stuck in it.) If you're part of a denomination like that, you're potentially under a lot of pressure and if you become pregnant, you don't have much choice other than abortion. It's a huge ordeal otherwise.

Other denominations and religions can be much more lenient or forgiving or accepting. However you want to put it. Either way, they're not under the same pressures and have more support, possibly.

 

To be perfectly honest, I find it sad that a person would have to compromise their beliefs to avoid being... shunned I guess. Unwanted pregnancy is never good, but feeling like you have no choice but abortion solely because of your community's religion is pretty awful.

 

All that being said, it is still a bit hypocritical. I personally believe it to be more ironic that a religious culture that is pro-life and abstinence-til-marriage in nature would also foster an environment where there is no choice but abortion for unplanned pregnancies.

 

edit: typos and clarity ^^"

Hmmmm...

 

As a Christian , myself, can I say that I find your take on it rather interesting.

 

I mean...I think that you are right in saying that leaving a person feeling like they have NO other option but to violate their conscience and beliefs further to avoid being shamed and ostracized is WRONG IMO. I mean, I am sure we have all made choices we regretted later. ALL too often, we Christians fall into a trap of feeling better than others because we do or don't do certain things. Reality is that we are human just like everyone else. Sometimes by trying SO hard to do the wright thing, it becomes all about looking good for others , which , int he end brings its own set of issues.

[CatCreature]

I agree that there could even be pro-choice Christians included in those numbers, as the numbers don't separate out by anything but religion and if they've had an abortion.

I think the image of christians being hypocrites are coming from the loud and noisy anti-choisers. The pro-choice christians don't create much of a fuzz, because they understand that an unplanned pregnancy is not something that "only happens to others".

 

The big question is, I think, how many of these christians were anti-choice before their abortion and how many of them stayed anti-choice after? They are the true hypocrites, like the ones in the link Socks provided.

 

[Faolyn]

In my personal opinion, abortion is a choice, one to be well-thought out and decided upon by the mother, and no one else if they so decide. Getting an abortion can save the woman's life, can keep her from having her life ruined early on if she isn't ready for a baby. If a woman is raped, and she is impregnated, is it her duty to carry the baby of a man that violated her human rights? Hell no! If you were forced to carry the child of ANYONE that did something so horrible to you, you would not want to have it. It is a choice, one that is so heavily carried by the afflicted women that many have the baby simply because the people around them EXPECT them to just carry it anyway. They do not have the right to tell a woman what gets to happen to her own body, because it dictates what her life will be for many, many years to come. And it's not just a cheap way to get out of having a kid, it can save lives. If a woman is to die to save the life of a baby that has never even been alive long enough to know what love or life is, then it is a real travesty. I do not, and will continue to not understand how people can say with such confidence that having an abortion should be illegal, because it is so incredibly close-minded. Abortion is a choice- her choice, no one else's, not a god's, not anyone else's.

[Alrexwolf]

As someone who was adopted.

 

As someone who was adopted in a closed adoption. As someone who was told their whole life that I "owed," my adoptive parents my entire existence because they purchased me. As someone who, whenever my parents owe me money for something, will automatically be told I don't because they saved my life and paid for me. Who grew up in the middle of nowhere because my parents were older and lived in a mostly retirement town. Whose parents will still stop in the middle of a grocery store when a child is crying and say, "someone should just beat that kid." As someone who has been told my "problem," is that I wasn't hit enough as a child.

 

As someone who has met my biological mother and who knows if I hadn't been adopted, my life would have been even worse than that.

 

I always see pro-life people with, "have you noticed everyone who is pro-choice has already been born," stickers. It wasn't our choice. How do you know that fetus won't grow up to be like me? Endlessly miserable due to mental illnesses, etc. How do you know that fetus will even be happy?

 

 

Everything in life is so tough these days. Kids who don't grow up in at least mid-middle class or higher have such a tough time doing anything. I, as a 21 year old with a degree and references, cannot even get a job at McDonalds or a grocery store. I've tried. College is incredibly expensive. Toys, clothes, food, even basics like medicine and diapers are expensive.

 

 

The world just isn't the same place it was where most teenagers could find summer jobs even without college. Most people could get factory jobs or do odd jobs and get by just fine. A kid who doesn't start out with the best possible situation - parents who are financially well-off, have connections, etc. are at incredibly poor odds for happiness.

 

"Money doesn't buy happiness," they decry, but it certainly buys security. Food, water, shelter, college, clothes, cars, extracurricular activities, pets, medical attention. They all sound so basic, but there are so many families across the US and beyond who can't afford them.

 

Why force children into a world where they can't compete. Where they're already at a disadvantage. Why put them in a foster/adoption system that is so riddled with abuse, with neglect, without love? Why force women to try to raise a child who will be at a disadvantage their entire lives if she can't find enough money to start saving for college and things they'll need for schooling, medicine, etc.

 

Why force a child to be born into a situation where they'll always be resented?

 

But to most people who are pro-life it doesn't matter. So long as the baby isn't aborted they don't give two shits about how awful their lives may be. I don't see (m)any pro-lifers out there adopting, fostering, supporting tax-supported college or healthcare, supporting anything that will make life kind to those unwanted kids.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Alrexwolf

[Faolyn]

As someone who was adopted.

 

As someone who was adopted in a closed adoption. As someone who was told their whole life that I "owed," my adoptive parents my entire existence because they purchased me. As someone who, whenever my parents owe me money for something, will automatically be told I don't because they saved my life and paid for me. Who grew up in the middle of nowhere because my parents were older and lived in a mostly retirement town. Whose parents will still stop in the middle of a grocery store when a child is crying and say, "someone should just beat that kid." As someone who has been told my "problem," is that I wasn't hit enough as a child.

 

As someone who has met my biological mother and who knows if I hadn't been adopted, my life would have been even worse than that.

 

I always see pro-life people with, "have you noticed everyone who is pro-choice has already been born," stickers. It wasn't our choice. How do you know that fetus won't grow up to be like me? Endlessly miserable due to mental illnesses, etc. How do you know that fetus will even be happy?

 

 

Everything in life is so tough these days. Kids who don't grow up in at least mid-middle class or higher have such a tough time doing anything. I, as a 21 year old with a degree and references, cannot even get a job at McDonalds or a grocery store. I've tried. College is incredibly expensive. Toys, clothes, food, even basics like medicine and diapers are expensive.

 

 

The world just isn't the same place it was where most teenagers could find summer jobs even without college. Most people could get factory jobs or do odd jobs and get by just fine. A kid who doesn't start out with the best possible situation - parents who are financially well-off, have connections, etc. are at incredibly poor odds for happiness.

 

"Money doesn't buy happiness," they decry, but it certainly buys security. Food, water, shelter, college, clothes, cars, extracurricular activities, pets, medical attention. They all sound so basic, but there are so many families across the US and beyond who can't afford them.

 

Why force children into a world where they can't compete. Where they're already at a disadvantage. Why put them in a foster/adoption system that is so riddled with abuse, with neglect, without love? Why force women to try to raise a child who will be at a disadvantage their entire lives if she can't find enough money to start saving for college and things they'll need for schooling, medicine, etc.

 

Why force a child to be born into a situation where they'll always be resented?

 

But to most people who are pro-life it doesn't matter. So long as the baby isn't aborted they don't give two shits about how awful their lives may be. I don't see (m)any pro-lifers out there adopting, fostering, supporting tax-supported college or healthcare, supporting anything that will make life kind to those unwanted kids.

I'm so sorry you've had it so rough so far if I could, I'd reach through the screen and give you the biggest hug. I agree with what you're saying, fully and completely. Pro-life people will always say " As long as the baby is saved, all is right." but they never think to consider who the baby will be, and what they will deal with after their birth. 96% of the time if the mother is considering abortion, its because she's in a place where having a child would be a horrible decision, for her, or her baby. Again, I'm so sorry you had to go through all you have, and I wish you only the best for the many years to come <3

[Princess Kiara]

As someone who was adopted.

 

As someone who was adopted in a closed adoption. As someone who was told their whole life that I "owed," my adoptive parents my entire existence because they purchased me. As someone who, whenever my parents owe me money for something, will automatically be told I don't because they saved my life and paid for me. Who grew up in the middle of nowhere because my parents were older and lived in a mostly retirement town. Whose parents will still stop in the middle of a grocery store when a child is crying and say, "someone should just beat that kid." As someone who has been told my "problem," is that I wasn't hit enough as a child.

 

As someone who has met my biological mother and who knows if I hadn't been adopted, my life would have been even worse than that.

 

I always see pro-life people with, "have you noticed everyone who is pro-choice has already been born," stickers. It wasn't our choice. How do you know that fetus won't grow up to be like me? Endlessly miserable due to mental illnesses, etc. How do you know that fetus will even be happy?

 

 

Everything in life is so tough these days. Kids who don't grow up in at least mid-middle class or higher have such a tough time doing anything. I, as a 21 year old with a degree and references, cannot even get a job at McDonalds or a grocery store. I've tried. College is incredibly expensive. Toys, clothes, food, even basics like medicine and diapers are expensive.

 

 

The world just isn't the same place it was where most teenagers could find summer jobs even without college. Most people could get factory jobs or do odd jobs and get by just fine. A kid who doesn't start out with the best possible situation - parents who are financially well-off, have connections, etc. are at incredibly poor odds for happiness.

 

"Money doesn't buy happiness," they decry, but it certainly buys security. Food, water, shelter, college, clothes, cars, extracurricular activities, pets, medical attention. They all sound so basic, but there are so many families across the US and beyond who can't afford them.

 

Why force children into a world where they can't compete. Where they're already at a disadvantage. Why put them in a foster/adoption system that is so riddled with abuse, with neglect, without love? Why force women to try to raise a child who will be at a disadvantage their entire lives if she can't find enough money to start saving for college and things they'll need for schooling, medicine, etc.

 

Why force a child to be born into a situation where they'll always be resented?

 

But to most people who are pro-life it doesn't matter. So long as the baby isn't aborted they don't give two shits about how awful their lives may be. I don't see (m)any pro-lifers out there adopting, fostering, supporting tax-supported college or healthcare, supporting anything that will make life kind to those unwanted kids.

I am so. SO. sorry, Airexwolf. I just wish I could hug you now.

 

I completely agree with everything you said. I had an abortion myself. Even before I knew I was pregnant I was having suicidal thoughts and couldn't even work (though I was less than a month along). After I knew...I fell apart. I hated the intrusion inside my body. I couldn't stop crying. My boyfriend suggested I keep it and give it to his mom to raise but I said no way am I going to carry this thing for nine months and then dump the responsibility on someone else. He got me the necessary pills and we did it at home.

 

There was no way I could have kept it. I've lived alone since my parents threw me out at 18 nearly two years ago and have had to fight to get by, even singing on buses and selling Oreos on the streets because I did not have enough even to buy a little water and I was melting in the tropical climate. I was doing a bit better financially by then, but still had to work very hard to pay rent, water, electricity, and food for myself and 4 dogs, 4 cats, 2 ducks and 5 chickens (most rescues; I've learned that where human family will fail you they will never leave your side.) My pregnancy was preventing me from working or even eating; I'm already malnourished because there were times when I couldn't eat anything for days at a time and I couldn't eat many things, in addition to the hormonal barrage. I don't live with my boyfriend and no one supports me (though he helps me out with money, I don't want to be a gold digger). Even so anyone who knew about it ("friends" mostly) told me I should die of shame and go to hell.

 

I had a happy childhood all in all while my mother wanted me. But when I was 14 she started to change toward me and my sisters. She forbade me to go upstairs at all and moved me to a cot in the small, hot servants' room, and wanted to charge me rent for that. She would go off to the movies for hours and leave me locked outside in the hot sun or tropical monsoon rains because she said I was too disagreeable to take with her and would eat everything in the fridge if I stayed home. She threw me out on the street with no money and no prior warning and kept me from getting my things, even my papers that I needed to finish high school, until I threatened to sue her for them. She is now mistreating my sisters, forcing them to lie to everyone about what she did with me and keeping me from speaking to them. She nearly called the police on me in a fit when she saw I'd found and bought back my dog Jasmine, who she sold without telling me the day before throwing me out. And me? I hate kids and most people at that. How the hell do they expect me to keep a kid I don't know if I will be able to provide with the love and care any kid deserves so they don't end up like me!?

[Daxillionyx]

First and foremost, I don't support the act of aborting a child.

This mainly stems from my beliefs that an unborn child is indeed a human, no matter what stage of development he or she is in. This means that abortion is murder in my eyes. I do believe that God created each and every one of us for a reason, and that it's not someone else's job or place to say who can live or die.

 

That being said: I absolutely hate it when people are only pro-life until the child is born. What do I mean?

A lot of people who claim to be pro-life only care whether the mother aborts her child or not. They don't care about the child's or the mom's life after she gives birth. That's twisted and makes no sense to me.

If you are going to guilt-trip a woman into being responsible for another human being's life (which is disgusting to do, by the way), and if you are going to preach about how abortion is murder and how she better not do it, then you had better be there to support her and her child after she gives birth.

Getting an abortion is not a decision a lot of women make easily. Some do, but a lot of women struggle with the guilt that often comes from knowing that, deep down inside, they decided to end a life. Many of them feel trapped, like they had no choice. Many of them didn't have the financial or social support needed to care for a child.

 

And those people that only care about the abortion won't see that, or just don't care. Those women need to know that they have options, and how they can access those options. They aren't witches or *s or irresponsible (except for women that treat abortions like birth control pills). They are human beings that need help, not a lecture from someone who could care less about them.

 

That's why I don't outwardly protest against abortion unless I have a personal relationship with the woman in question, and can help her in some way. Even if I can just let her know that she does have other options that she may be happier with in the end, that's good for me. I can't do much for most women in the world, but that's also why I hold my tongue most of the time.

 

And I can donate to and support awesome pro-life organizations like Save the Storks, who help women before and after their choice to save the life of their child. Supporting organizations that don't demonize women and show them that they have alternatives is a much more humane way to handle this. Keeping your distance while acting high-and-mighty is not.

 

I know I would want someone to be understanding in their situation.

[Sundew]

Daxillionyx, thank you for being so empathetic of women in that position, even when their decisions are not in line with your own beliefs.

 

I personally don't enjoy discussion about whether life begins at conception or the third trimester or after being born, since I think most people's beliefs on that are going to be close to them and are unlikely to change. Personally, I don't consider the unborn as human, but I think that, even if they are considered human, abortion should still be an option -- I don't think it's good to bring a child into the world when you know in advance that you would not be able to give them the care and love they need.

 

Although I've never known someone who was considering an abortion, I can see myself discouraging it when it comes to people I know in real life, because of the stigma or the emotional turmoil it might bring them. I think it's a case-by-case basis there. But in the end it is absolutely their decision.

[Obscure_Trash]

And I can donate to and support awesome pro-life organizations like Save the Storks, who help women before and after their choice to save the life of their child.

 

This:

 

If you are going to guilt-trip a woman into being responsible for another human being's life (which is disgusting to do, by the way), and if you are going to preach about how abortion is murder and how she better not do it,

 

is what Save the Storks does, though? Once someone has been entrapped inside a StS van, they spread misinformation meant to scare people away from aborting and utilize emotionally manipulative tactics to guilt them out of actually making a decision for themselves, for their own life.

 

Maybe you could think about one of these other, more reputable charities instead?

http://baby2baby.org/

http://nationaldiaperbanknetwork.org/

http://www.feedthechildren.org/

http://www.parents.com/parenting/money/vol...ies-to-support/

https://www.singlemotherhelp.org/top-10-non...lp-mothers.html

https://www.thespruce.com/best-charities-fo...parents-2997404

 

[Daxillionyx]

 

Those other organizations seem fine enough, and I wouldn't mind donating to some of those.

 

is what Save the Storks does, though? Once someone has been entrapped inside a StS van, they spread misinformation meant to scare people away from aborting and utilize emotionally manipulative tactics to guilt them out of actually making a decision for themselves, for their own life.

 

You seem to have first-hand experience with Save the Storks. What happened to you or someone you know concerning them? You had a bad experience?

Edited June 23, 2017 by Daxillionyx

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm not sock - but have a read:

 

http://feministing.com/2012/03/22/save-the...choice-tactics/

http://theslot.jezebel.com/inside-the-save...ffer-1792710822

 

I do think the other organisations Sock cites do a rather better job.

[Infinis]

If we had widely available and low-cost (or free!) contraceptives, we would have fewer unwanted pregnancies and fewer abortions as a result.

 

If we could let abstinence-only and scare tactics sex "education" die, we could actually progress to more comprehensive sex ed that doesn't classify sex as of the devil, actually teaches people about their bodies, and that teaches contraceptive options and use.

 

Many people who choose abortion are often desperate, poor, and under-educated. What they need is not people peddling lies, it's support from almost every level. If they're to keep it instead, they need childcare (babysitting+daycare), job training if needed, monetary support for food and non-food necessities, driving school and a vehicle for work (esp. if public transit is not an option), healthcare (especially at this time in the country), and funding for college/vocational school that doesn't drown them in debt.

 

If reducing abortions is the goal, then attack the problem at its roots and start helping to change the pervasive culture of hatred of the poor that exists in this country.

[Daxillionyx]

First Article

 

Hm, well thanks for the article, but please, sincerely forgive me for taking what the author says with a grain of salt.

 

The article's content oozes with pro-choice rhetoric, obviously given that it's a Feminist website. So I expect such an article to demonize organizations like StS without much proof about all of their alleged wrongdoings.

And the whole part about StS suggesting that babies come from storks as part of their mission just sounded... out of the blue to me. It feels like the author is seriously grasping at straws there. Why the heck? Next, the article uses loaded words like "anti-choice" and calls the opposite side "childish" in order to get its point across. That is just a turn-off for me, for someone who prefers a more objective and mature approach.

 

I'm not saying that StS has done no wrong, but I'd be more convinced if a more refutable site was offered up with evidence and some first-hand accounts. Namely a much-less biased and more mature source would make more sense.

 

Second Article

 

Now this one was waaaay more convincing than the first one. No need for ad hominems, just tell me what the author or reporters saw or experienced.

 

It's saddening to see that some of these StS workers are misinformed and are misinforming the women they are trying to reach. If you want to really help people, get your facts straight first. The goal should not be to push a pro-choice or a pro-life agenda. It's just supposed to be to make them more aware about all of their options, abortion or not, so they can make a more informed decision that they will hopefully not regret later.

 

I'll definitely be more wary and do some research on this about StS, and will hopefully find some info on this subject from refutable sites. Obviously one article isn't enough to totally flip a person's mind, but at least Sock pointed me to other organizations I can look into as well.

[The Dragoness]

Honestly, I can't quite understand why people might think it's their business to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body, regardless of how or when she became pregnant. I support abortion. There will always be the people who abuse it, sadly, because there isn't much done to prevent them from doing so. To me, it seems that the biggest thing preventing women from going through with abortions is the very real idea that they'll be shamed for it. Why should anyone have to feel ashamed for doing something perfectly safe and sometimes vital with their own body? Why should a woman be forced to give birth to an unwanted child that may suffer? Offering help when it's wanted is one thing. Trying to change someone's mind to fit your vision is another.

 

However, I think everyone is entitled to an opinion as long as said opinion doesn't harm others. There is no definite right answer. I know this is a touchy subject, so I don't want to step on any toes here. I'm just throwing my two cents in.

Edited June 24, 2017 by The Dragoness

[CatCreature]

We have a case in my country that is about to turn into a soap opera.

 

It's about a nurse who educated herself to become a midwife. The education was free of charge, paid with tax money. Somehow she managed to get her licence even though she's against abortion and some birth control due to her religion. (A mid wife here handles not only pregnant women but also women who don't want to be pregnant)

 

She applied for jobs at three (government runned) hospitals but all of them turned her down since she admitted that she refused to do parts of the job description. She felt discriminated against and turned to the Equality Ombudsman. The answer she got was nope, she wasn't being discriminated. She simply wasn't hired since she refused to do parts of the job required.

 

She didn't accept the answer and turned to Crown Court. Same result there.

 

Then she turned to Labor Court. Same result there.

 

Now she's on her way to European Court.

 

She talks about discrimination, freedom of conscience and human rights. And the reply she keeps getting is that she's not discriminated against, nobody is forcing her to do abortions + handling birth control and it's no human right to become a midwife.

 

There are options for her, such as private clinics or become a doula but for some reason she isn't applying for job there.

[Daxillionyx]

Hm. Maybe she doesn't want a job in the private sector because the perks or pay is better in the public sector? That and/or she likes stirring the pot and getting reactions.

 

Even though I am anti-abortion myself, her actions are irrational. It's apparent that she will never win a case because the job she wants requires her to take part in activities her beliefs won't allow her to take part in. She should move on and seek the other options available to her that allow her to practice without compromise.