Abortion

[Kestra15]

I once read an article in a German magazine (about, uh, 15-20 years ago, I think) about a woman who considered abortion to be just another form of birth control - and had had many abortions. (Somewhere between 5 and 7, don't remember exactly.) Seriously, she preferred to have abortions over other kinds of birth control. I found that astounding, and very, very wrong morally. And I feel like people like that should be denied abortion.

I agree with you in that abortion should not be considered a valid, regular alternative to birth control. The person should have the maturity and forethought to consider other options.

 

However I would not deny that woman her eighth abortion for one simple reason; if she considers that fetus to be something that can be so easily thrown away, just how important would she then consider the life of the child she was forced to have?

 

While I would rather such a person would learn to take responsibility for her action it should not be at the expense of an unhappy childhood.

[Fuzzbucket]

2.Abortion wasn't invented when it was legalized and nor was pre or extramarital sex.( Again... whatever I may think about either)

Abortion has been around since the Romans, and probably before. Just saying. As has sexual activity in every phase of life, marital or not.

 

Though how could it have been legalised if it hadn't been invented. Am I missing something here ?

[JavaTigress]

Abortion has been around since the Romans, and probably before. Just saying. As has sexual activity in every phase of life, marital or not.

 

Though how could it have been legalised if it hadn't been invented. Am I missing something here ?

Perhaps my wording was unclear. I meant that it WAS happening.... though to hear some people talk you would THINK it was something completely new.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Silverswift

[Shienvien]

However I would not deny that woman her eighth abortion for one simple reason; if she considers that fetus to be something that can be so easily thrown away, just how important would she then consider the life of the child she was forced to have?

This.

 

Either the child'll grow up knowing they're an inconvenience (and may be further blamed for the mother losing her job, the mother's partner leaving them, etc - I know all too many people who have been told by their parents that they "have ruined their lives"), or they will go from foster home to foster home (relatively small percentage on children given up for adoption end up being adopted, and that's even less when they have something - like a medical condition - that sets them at disadvantage).

 

Add to that that a person who does not want a child or care about the well-being of a fetus is likely to continue smoking/drinking, could be taking strong medications for other conditions, may even try to deliberately induce impromptu abortion, etc - do a bunch of things that are very much harmful to a fetus.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Shienvien

[Fuzzbucket]

The doctor I used to work for had a simple solution for the repeater who used it as a form of BC. He was permitted to charge for a referral letter (I have no idea why, but....) He didn't charge for the first. He would tell the woman that there would be a charge in future. He SOMETIMES let them off the second. But after that - the charge was a major deterrent and almost all of them would develop a sudden enthusiasm for the pill or an IUD

 

Of course, this was in a country with decent universal health care....

[High Lord November]

I once read an article in a German magazine (about, uh, 15-20 years ago, I think) about a woman who considered abortion to be just another form of birth control - and had had many abortions. (Somewhere between 5 and 7, don't remember exactly.) Seriously, she preferred to have abortions over other kinds of birth control. I found that astounding, and very, very wrong morally. And I feel like people like that should be denied abortion. Because abortion is not birth control, and shouldn't be used that way time and again. In many of these cases, at least in my home country with very little racial diversity and lots of couples waiting to be able to adopt, adoption is an alternative to consider.

 

On the other hand, there are cases where I totally think that abortion is justified. Cases of abuse and rape, a horribly sick child (anencephaly, for example) or risk to the life or health of the mother are reasons that I feel are valid for a termination. I'm sure there are other "good reasons", too, but I don't think I named them all.

 

Other cases I'm rather unsure about, like social and economic reasons (the mother is considered too young to have a child, she'll suffer monetarily for having a baby...) and so on because in many cases (not all, mind you!), adoption could be an alternative, and should be considered as such.

 

When I got pregnant while still in the middle of my studies, I was faced with the "good" advice to consider abortion. I didn't.

Would my life have been different if I had chosen differently? Most assuredly, yes. But I doubt it would have been better. Most certainly, it would have been more empty than it is now.

 

There will always be people who abuse any system. What we have to look at is how frequent is the system severely abused, and compare it to how many people it helps. Abortion helps so many people, and is abused by so very few.

 

For the person who continues to have abortions as a form of birth control, I agree that it is morally off. However, the alternative would be to "punish" her with a kid, and no human should ever be born as punishment, nor should any women be forced to go through pregnancy as punishment. The best way moving forward to reduce these cases would be extensive sexual education for everyone, and widely available contraceptives, while still allowing for access to abortions.

 

There are already SO many kids in the foster care system, who face higher rates of abuse and suicide attempts. Sock has the "big nasty bucket of adoption statistics" somewhere around here. Adoption is not the "everyone wins" option. What makes my kid different from all the other ones that get put into the system? I'd rather care for those who we already have (all those who are already alive), instead of forcing something that we DON'T currently have to exist, just to put them into the adoption system. They do have a chance at finding a good family, but they also have a high chance of not. I'd rather give good care and families to those who are already here, rather than birth a baby for the purpose of adding it into such a system and maybe taking away an opportunity for someone who we already have here to have a decent life.

Edited November 19, 2016 by High Lord November

[Painter]

If someone is okay with abortion in the event that the mother's health is in danger, they also need to recognize that pregnancy is ALWAYS risky.

 

Pregnancy isn't a cakewalk. I can't imagine the outrage a family member would feel if their relation died during childbirth but had wanted an abortion prior to that, but was denied due to pro-life legislation. That is literally dying for the sake of someone else -- against your will. Messed up.

 

The rate isn't as high when you have access to modern medicine, still, women should be allowed to choose whether to risk their lives or not. That's not something you should be forced into with no way out. Women suffering longterm complications, and even dying, is hardly far from commonplace.

 

Unrelated to that. Women own their organs. End of story. The next door neighbor doesn't own my uterus. Underdeveloped persons don't get to stay there without the owner's consent, either.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Painter

[gigglymonkey12]

The best way moving forward to reduce these cases would be extensive sexual education for everyone, and widely available contraceptives, while still allowing for access to abortions.

This.

I have so much to say about sexual education, especially those in the US. It is definitely lacking. Teachers will show the worse case scenario for STI and honestly...that's not how the majority of cases are. I took both of the sex education my school offered (one for those who don't plan on being active and one for those who do plan on being active)...I was faced with an extremely judgmental teacher who basically shamed the students who admitted to being active. I believe that the schools should have hired a more open minded teacher and taught both classes about contraceptives.

They don't compare the costs of different forms of contraceptives.

Honestly speaking, condoms with perfect use is pretty good, but with typical use...the numbers are still up there. I wish sex education would teach students how to use condoms better. This would prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

 

I did the cost analysis of condoms vs the IUD and honestly, if you were active, getting the IUD would be much cheaper in the long run (it doesn't protect against STI though).

----

I have no problem with abortions, but I think it is not wise to get rid of it. I would rather people focus their energy on trying to change the system at the root. Educating the younger public about sex and how to prevent pregnancy would be better than shaming them to the point that they don't want to ask for help and then they end up getting pregnant....

Edited November 19, 2016 by gigglymonkey12

[Brite]

I'll always be pro-choice.

 

And I also agree that there needs to be more funding on contraceptives. I'm lucky enough to have a uterus that doesn't reject the IUD I was (also lucky enough) able to get.

 

Might I add, I'm the only one that's pro-choice in my house. And it isn't easy keeping calm when the family sometimes talks about it and tries to prod me with their morals, which I personally see as just opinions and feelings. My sister even had the nerve to say, "I have every right to know what you do with your body. I'm your big sister."

 

Like..EXCUSE ME?! You have NO right! *Stops here before anger flushes in*

 

But yea...

[Fuzzbucket]

I have a pro-life friend. I admire the way she deals with people who ask; her attitude is the right one. No pushing it on others.

 

"Are you anti-abortion ?"

"I wouldn't have one."

 

She won't take it any further.

 

Each of us has our own ethics about this; no-one forces anyone to have an abortion (pace domineering parents who drag their unwilling teenaged daughters who wanted their babies to a clinic ), bu for those of us who want to have that choice, it should be there.

 

And yes, good, non-judgemental sex ed and cheap - ideally free - contraception should be widely available too. Never mind all these issues, there are young people who believe that you can't get pregnant if you do it standing up; that you CAN if you sit on a chair still warm from when a guy sat on it - and when I worked for a doctor, we had an ADULT couple desperate to get pregnant who hadn't managed - and it turned out they'd been having intercourse in her urethra. OUCH, but - well...

 

[Zeditha]

On this issue, I really, really wish all of the world had access to what I have.

 

I went to a private school in England, and there were compulsory sex ed lessons, at least once a year. We were told about contraception and condoms and family planning clinics and where to find them.

 

And then, when I decided I wanted to go on the pill (a few weeks before I turned 16), all I had to do was go to the GP, answer a few questions, and get a blood pressure test. It's completely free here.

It completely appals me that some areas don't offer free contraceptives - or even contraceptives at all - and then expect that making abortion illegal is perfectly morally reasonable!

 

I'm pro-choice, 100%. But I'm also pro not making people go through that choice. England, and my school in particular, have done this very well. The US needs to catch the up, IMHO.

 

 

I shouldn't have to be lucky to live somewhere where I get free contraception and good sex ed. It should be available, freely, everywhere.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Zeditha

[JavaTigress]

I have a pro-life friend. I admire the way she deals with people who ask; her attitude is the right one. No pushing it on others.

 

"Are you anti-abortion ?"

"I wouldn't have one."

 

She won't take it any further.

 

Each of us has our own ethics about this; no-one forces anyone to have an abortion (pace domineering parents who drag their unwilling teenaged daughters who wanted their babies to a clinic ), bu for those of us who want to have that choice, it should be there.

 

And yes, good, non-judgemental sex ed and cheap - ideally free - contraception should be widely available too. Never mind all these issues, there are young people who believe that you can't get pregnant if you do it standing up; that you CAN if you sit on a chair still warm from when a guy sat on it - and when I worked for a doctor, we had an ADULT couple desperate to get pregnant who hadn't managed - and it turned out they'd been having intercourse in her urethra. OUCH, but - well...

I can truthfully say that I respect that friend's way of handling it.

 

I would also add that I agree that combating the ignorance about it would likely reduce the umber of abortions. As I said.... how many abortions happen PURELY because someone didn't know what they were doing? Trouble is too... I feel like kids being kids and if they are curious they will LIKELY go looking for the info anyway.... and if what they find isn't accurate...

 

I guess, bottom line.... I would agree with Zeditha on saying avoiding the choice in the first place is probably best.

 

[AppleMango]

I have a pro-life friend. I admire the way she deals with people who ask; her attitude is the right one. No pushing it on others.

 

"Are you anti-abortion ?"

"I wouldn't have one."

 

She won't take it any further.

 

Each of us has our own ethics about this; no-one forces anyone to have an abortion (pace domineering parents who drag their unwilling teenaged daughters who wanted their babies to a clinic ), bu for those of us who want to have that choice, it should be there.

 

And yes, good, non-judgemental sex ed and cheap - ideally free - contraception should be widely available too. Never mind all these issues, there are young people who believe that you can't get pregnant if you do it standing up; that you CAN if you sit on a chair still warm from when a guy sat on it - and when I worked for a doctor, we had an ADULT couple desperate to get pregnant who hadn't managed - and it turned out they'd been having intercourse in her urethra. OUCH, but - well...

I like how your friend goes about it.

I honestly believe you can be pro-life and pro-choice. Like, you can be against abortion to any degree, but still realise that it isn't your place to try and force it on everyone.

I also think if doctors don't agree with abortion they should be able to conscientiously object from performing them, but hospitals should also be obligated to employ doctors that will perform them so women don't have to travel to other places to get them if they get them.

 

 

 

How does that even happen? I'm cringing thinking about it. That's not where it goes. :'(

 

 

[demonicvampiregirl]

On this issue, I really, really wish all of the world had access to what I have.

 

I went to a private school in England, and there were compulsory sex ed lessons, at least once a year. We were told about contraception and condoms and family planning clinics and where to find them.

 

And then, when I decided I wanted to go on the pill (a few weeks before I turned 16), all I had to do was go to the GP, answer a few questions, and get a blood pressure test. It's completely free here.

It completely appals me that some areas don't offer free contraceptives - or even contraceptives at all - and then expect that making abortion illegal is perfectly morally reasonable!

 

I'm pro-choice, 100%. But I'm also pro not making people go through that choice. England, and my school in particular, have done this very well. The US needs to catch the up, IMHO.

 

 

I shouldn't have to be lucky to live somewhere where I get free contraception and good sex ed. It should be available, freely, everywhere.

This so much.

 

You have no idea how many people I have had arguments with on FB because I am pro-choice. I sadly live in Ohio where they have been passing new abortion laws.

 

I do not want children, I'm not fond of them or anything else. People told me adoption was a choice. My issue is I do not want to even go through the birthing process, then drop the child off to someone I don't even know or worse, it's never even adopted. Why? That child could have a even more horrible life than it would have with me. They keep telling me to keep my legs shut (and I have been!) but that don't exclude possible rape, the chance that I magically find someone and I get pregnant, ect.

 

It's sad that so many people are pro-birth yet don't see what goes into raising that kid at all. If they do, they are being ignorant in the fact that apparently everyone is able to do it. I actually attempt to stay away from my own cousins children. I have been asked to hold a kid once and I pretty much held them at arms length. Was completely uncomfortable with that.

 

I am pro-choice for many, many reasons (not all listed here either) and believe we do need better sex ed classes and better, easily accessible forms of birth control. It's still mind boggling that people do not have easy access to this in every country.

[LikeTwoPancakes]

I think it should begin and end with the person having the procedure. It's not one else business what they do or don't do. I think it's extremely inappropriate to shame people who do have abortions.

[DragonNighthowler]

We're a rotten society when we stop considering women as people to start treating them a vessels because a still non viable embryo has more personhood than the woman who is, at this very moment, alive.

 

A woman dies in El Salvador because the extreme anti-abortion laws in that country forbade the doctors to treat her cancer (which ultimately killed her and the fetus). They could only treat her with inefficient, mild, non toxic medication because if the little critter was damaged they could be seen as having provoked the abortion and thus could go to jail.

 

A woman in Ireland dies from sepsis due to a non viable fetus they refused to extract.

 

A 13 year old girl who was raped was denied the right to abort in Mexico, because making a 13 year old child go through pregnancy is just lovely.

 

Women who die because the fetus was developing in the fallopian tubes and, even though that's a medical school 101 NON VIABLE fetus and a HUGE LIFE RISK for the potential mother, who gives a damn about the vessel?

 

I know I'm going to ignite a few flames here but, in all my life (and I've been debating this topic for nearly 15 years, and have gone from anti to pro choice), absolutely ALL pro-life I've spoken with don't give a damn about the mother OR the fetus. The only thing they care about is their own, personal ethics, and for such ethics to be imposed upon the rest because that's what they ultimately believe is the right thing. The only thing they care is their peace of mind, their perception of right and wrong, and to force their unquestionable truth upon the heretics who would defy them. It's all about them, them and ultimately THEM and their huge planet sized ego.

 

I've never, ever seen a single pro-life talking about the woman as nothing more than a vessel (or to insult her, because she's either a simple vessel with no personhood or personality, or evil incarnate, it's not like she's a real human being, a person, with her own problems, thoughts, emotions and personal situation). I've never ever seen a single pro-life give a damn about the little kid once it is out of their own personal faceless incubator. Actually just today my country passed on a law where orphans due to gender violence just lost part of their rights... that was the same political party shouting like zealots about the rights of the unborn child. That's how much they actually care about the children. Because it was never about the kids, it was about them, their ethics, and forcing their ethics upon the rest of society.

 

In days like these, when I remember how each and every country is legislating female reproductive rights in a room FULL OF MEN. When out opinion IS NEVER ASKED. In days like this I realise that if men gave birth, abortion would be a universal right.

 

You guys know who else never has a choice over their reproductive rights? Pets.

Edited March 9, 2017 by DragonNighthowler

[olympe]

I have a pro-life friend. I admire the way she deals with people who ask; her attitude is the right one. No pushing it on others.

 

"Are you anti-abortion ?"

"I wouldn't have one."

 

She won't take it any further.

 

Each of us has our own ethics about this; no-one forces anyone to have an abortion (pace domineering parents who drag their unwilling teenaged daughters who wanted their babies to a clinic ), bu for those of us who want to have that choice, it should be there.

 

And yes, good, non-judgemental sex ed and cheap - ideally free - contraception should be widely available too. Never mind all these issues, there are young people who believe that you can't get pregnant if you do it standing up; that you CAN if you sit on a chair still warm from when a guy sat on it - and when I worked for a doctor, we had an ADULT couple desperate to get pregnant who hadn't managed - and it turned out they'd been having intercourse in her urethra. OUCH, but - well...

I think that covers my own stance rather well, too - although I could imagine extreme circumstances where even I would consider an abortion. But I know I wouldn't do it lightly. Plus, I firmly believe that, before an abortion is considered even in theory, the woman in question should have done her utmost to not get pregnant. Personally, I'm considering to get a tubal ligation in case I should ever decide to get myself a boyfriend again. Because I know for a fact I don't want to have any more children, and not conceiving is better than having an abortion. (That being said, I'm aware that even that kind of surgery has a failure rate...)

[grimace]

~Removed~ Edited March 10, 2017 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Cecona]

A lot of good points have been made in this topic, including better sex ed and more easily obtained contraceptives which I believe will definitely help. I watched an episode of Untold Stories of the ER two weeks ago and it had a teenage girl that had no idea she was pregnant until she was giving birth because her and her boyfriend believed they could not get pregnant standing up. Apparently the boyfriend was told this by his older brother and they believed it. The U.S. is still very much under the clutches of religious zealots that believe scaring children with STDs and making them watch plays/assemblies about abstinence will keep them from having sex- obviously this doesn't work. I remember going to the abstinence assembly at my high school, I was kicked out for booing and shouting that condoms and birth control was the way to go. That actually got me suspended, but what do you expect from Texas?

 

I recently saw an ad on YouTube that was obviously pro-life saying that planned parenthood should be defunded because while they claim to offer prenatal care, the offices they called said they don't. I don't know how many places they actually called and how many said they do or how many they added to the ad, but it was basically saying planned parenthood only offers abortions. While I feel that prenatal care is easy enough to get already from doctors and pharmacies, it might be a good idea for planned parenthood to also have such options. It's possible that they are in the process of adding these things.

 

I would also like to add something else: Trumps recent attempt to criminalize abortions has only made me sure of something. I would so be willing to go to prison for 4-5 years if I needed an abortion. I don't ever see myself getting one since I want children, but if I needed it I would get one.

[Obscure_Trash]

A lot of good points have been made in this topic, including better sex ed and more easily obtained contraceptives which I believe will definitely help. I watched an episode of Untold Stories of the ER two weeks ago and it had a teenage girl that had no idea she was pregnant until she was giving birth because her and her boyfriend believed they could not get pregnant standing up. Apparently the boyfriend was told this by his older brother and they believed it. The U.S. is still very much under the clutches of religious zealots that believe scaring children with STDs and making them watch plays/assemblies about abstinence will keep them from having sex- obviously this doesn't work. I remember going to the abstinence assembly at my high school, I was kicked out for booing and shouting that condoms and birth control was the way to go. That actually got me suspended, but what do you expect from Texas?

My friend used to volunteer on the sex ed call line. She heard from multiple kids/teens/even adults who believed: you couldn't get pregnant standing up, you couldn't get pregnant in the shower, you couldn't get pregnant in the kitchen, or you couldn't get pregnant on Sunday. Some of these I can understand where they came from, but there's really no logic to them. Yet plenty of people do believe them. =\

 

It's really sad that it has been proven that: comprehensive sex ed, accessible family planning services, affordable birth control, and access to reproductive choices lowers abortion rates by drastic amounts, yet the extremist anti-choicers are unwilling to hear this and budge on their practices of filling kids' heads full of ignorance and propaganda.

 

Good on you for speaking up at your school assembly, though!

[TCA]

Y'know, I went to a Catholic high school and while they did try to scare us with STDs and pregnancy and said that abstinence was the only 100% effective way of preventing STDs and pregnancy, they ALSO told us that all those dumb myths like "can't get pregnant if you're standing up/on Sunday/if you rinse out with Coca-Cola afterwards" were false and that condoms and birth control pills, while not 100% effective, are safer than unprotected sex.

 

I wish that when the religious folks try and take a stand, they'd be more like my high school. Say their piece but also educate accurately. They'd see less abortions if they did.

[Cecona]

It surprises me that a religious school would say anything about condoms and birth control, granted they told you to not have sex. The whole thing with abstinence is you cannot force anyone to do (or in this case, not do) something and teenagers will explore and try to find ways around it (like ear or belly button sex).

 

Pro-life people need to understand that the issue isn't over when the child is born. They don't care about the mother or child once it's no longer inside the woman and won't do anything to help them out. If anything they seem more inclined to cause such people even more issues by denying them the help they need. Content to let them live in a car or on the streets so long as the fetus was not killed. And they do not care what happens to children in foster care, having no remorse with throwing more and more kids into a broken system that will leave them damaged, abused, and most likely unloved.

 

I dated a guy whose family took in foster children and he has a lot of horror stories, like the child they took in that was shaken as a young baby and has issues now. He was taken from his parents but because of his problems no one wanted to actually adopt him. One thing that really got me is the cycle of sexual abuse that is within the foster care system. You need to jump through hoops to actually adopt, yet they will let almost anyone Foster and that sadly can lead to these children being put in abusive homes where the adults or even other children will assault them. And there are far too many people that do it purely for the money they get from caring for the kids and don't actually do what they need to or get help for these kids.

 

Not to mention that you can't just put a child in the system, you need to actually pay a lot of money unless the woman decides to take the baby home and then immediately drop it off at a fire station or police station or where ever the abandoned child drop off is.

 

The other option of keeping the child isn't always the best either, as you cannot guarantee the mother will love the child she was forced to keep when she didn't want to. I remember some time ago (few years) in this forum (not sure if it was this thread or not) a guy that was pro-life shared the story of his younger brother and how his mother didn't want him but was forced to keep him and has neglected the little brother since birth so the guy had a lot to do with raising him. It's a perfect example as to why abortion should be an available option.

 

Honestly I don't understand how people can be so against killing a not yet viable fetus, yet not care at all when a child is abused and neglected when thrown carelessly into foster care.

 

It's no secret that the foster/adoption system in this country has always been corrupt, just look at Georgia Tann, a woman known for stealing, trafficking, and murdering babies. She would pressure unwed mothers to give her their children, would steal children from nurseries and daycare, and even claim a newborn needed medical help and steal it from the mother minutes after birth. She would sell the babies, abuse them, and even kill them if they were not adopted or were simply too troublesome. She would just leave the babies our in the hot sun and wait for them to die of heat stroke.

[sroo]

As I live in a country where every one has the possibility to have an abortion these news from "western / first world" countries are disturbing to hear.. Like really. And it is scary to think that in America, that's supposed to be land of the free and seekers' of happiness, there are so archaic views on sex. The #AlternativeFact is a laughable meme here in Europe but it really shouldn't be as it is reality in the States.

 

I do think that the abortion should be considered before it's performed, and everything possible should be done to prevent the pregnancies before the actual conceiving happens. A child should be a joy, a gift of new life. Not a punishment for teenage experimentation or for some other. As said it will cost society far more to raise the "unwanted" child than to offer proper sex ed and planned parenting centers.

[JavaTigress]

Y'know, I went to a Catholic high school and while they did try to scare us with STDs and pregnancy and said that abstinence was the only 100% effective way of preventing STDs and pregnancy, they ALSO told us that all those dumb myths like "can't get pregnant if you're standing up/on Sunday/if you rinse out with Coca-Cola afterwards" were false and that condoms and birth control pills, while not 100% effective, are safer than unprotected sex.

 

I wish that when the religious folks try and take a stand, they'd be more like my high school. Say their piece but also educate accurately. They'd see less abortions if they did.

I can agree with this.

I mean.... even considering abstinence a good idea, ignorance is in NOBODY's interest.

[Fuzzbucket]

My friend used to volunteer on the sex ed call line. She heard from multiple kids/teens/even adults who believed: you couldn't get pregnant standing up, you couldn't get pregnant in the shower, you couldn't get pregnant in the kitchen, or you couldn't get pregnant on Sunday. Some of these I can understand where they came from, but there's really no logic to them. Yet plenty of people do believe them. =\

When I was a kid, I knew people who had been told you could get pregnant by sharing a piece of cake with a boy, or by sitting on a chair that is still warm from a boy sitting on it before you And EVERYONE knew you can't get pregnant your first time....

 

(Note to anyone who might take this seriously - that is a TOTAL myth. Everyone knew it - that's not the same as it being true !)