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Everything posted by Cecona

  1. It’s definitely a bad idea to assume anyone can do something because you or someone else can. Everyone has different situations and can range from a person with perfect health, to someone that can’t even afford their medicine, or someone with supportive friends and family, to someone that has no one on their side. And even those factors might not make a difference. My dad had all the support and friends he could ask for but still ended up taking his own life. it is scary to know that some people don’t understand at all what it takes for a woman to find proper reproductive care. I recently made a comment on a YouTube video and some of the comments I got were insane. “Why have sex if you aren’t trying to have children? Isn’t that why you are biologically driven to have sex? If raped take the morning after pill and have your eggs removed to be safe”. Then there was someone claiming if you aren’t ready to have kids you shouldn’t be having sex.
  2. No one was saying that after abortion counseling is bad, it can actually be very helpful for the women who need it. It is bad, however, when they use negative and shameful wording and aren’t done by trained, licensed professionals in the proper fields. There is also a very big difference between friends suggesting you get an abortion, and being forced to have your decision to abort constantly questioned or insisted that you don’t know yourself or what is best by law.
  3. That is a very scary situation to be in if you are a woman looking for an abortion. Places like that will set up next to or near an actual planned parenthood to trick people, even tell them they are associated with the planned parenthood. They will call the fetus a baby, ask for family info and numbers so they can tell them in case the family doesn’t know and wants to stop it, they will try to get the husband/boyfriend/significant other to forbid it if he didn’t know, they make you listen to the heartbeat, and basically anything to try and manipulate the woman into not getting an abortion. There was a story told earlier in the thread about a young girl that was tricked by a place like that. She and her mother went to the place next to the planned parenthood and were told they were associated/connected and would make the appointment. Instead they called the police and told them a mother was trying to force her daughter to have an abortion. When a side has to resort to lying, trickery, force/abuse, and emotional manipulation there is no way it can be considered good. Pro-choice never has to resort to any of that. We have facts, science, and look out for the wellbeing of the already established living person. We don’t believe we know what is right for other people, because only that person knows and it is their choice to do what they know is best for them. We don’t shame these women or make them feel bad, we support them.
  4. You never know if you will end up being one of those 830 on that day. A loose example would be my chances of having Aspergers. About 1% of the world population has autism, and about 2 in every 1000 child with autism has aspergers. This plus the fact that boys are 10% more likely than girls to have aspergers my chances should be pretty low, yet I have it- one of the most severe cases my doctor has come across. I think that it’s up to the woman to decide if she wants to take the risk or not no matter the numbers. It’s her body, and just like if a person does not want to donate organs or blood against their will a woman should not have her body used as an incubator against her will. I also want to add how hard it can be to actually adopt a child in the U.S. It’s different than being a foster family, as the child is supposed to stay and be a part of the family forever. And you can be rejected for so many reasons like how much money you bring in, whether you are single, dating, or married, your weight (yes this one is real, a married couple was denied from adopting, even though they had adopted successfully before, and the claim was because the husband was too fat), your health physical or mental. I understand it’s important to be able to properly care for the child, but they take it way too far. That’s why people are choosing to adopt from other countries, because they can’t adopt in thier own! So that is yet another hurdle for a child thrown into the system, not enough people allowed to adopt.
  5. I think they meant their father knocked up a bunch of women and then paid/made them get the abortion. Probably because he wasnt ready to be a father and deal with having a child, or didn’t have the money to pay child support. I would also like to point out that in the same sense that aborted embryo could have been a loving sibling, it could also be the next Hitler or Stalin. I also advise you do some research on the literal living hell that is the adoption/foster care system before insisting women force themselves to go through 40 weeks of hell and a medical procedure that could possibly kill her just to throw the child in the already over crowded system where there is a more likely than not chance of them to be abused, molested, neglected, kept purely for the money they bring in, and attempt suicide before they are even teenagers. I know a few good foster families and have heard these tales from the children themselves.
  6. Republicans and pro-life lobbyists are, and have been working to give rights to unviable embryos/fetuses that trump those of the already established life of the mother on the case that life begins at or right after conception. They recently attempted to revoke roe V wade, which I’m actually surprised no on has talked about. Your different context is claiming it’s alright to kill an already established person, which is in no way the same thing as killing something that doesnt even have the capacity to do literally anything. A blastocyst cannot think, breathe, move. It has no organs, no spinal cord, no nervous system. Up until it becomes a viable fetus/baby you can not compare it to an already living person and claim killing one is the same as killing the other.
  7. That would be true if people weren’t trying to form laws around the idea that life begins so early and there for the potential life has precedence over the mother. I also very well can draw a line because of the giant distinction between a fetus still growing inside and leeching nutrients off the mother, and a child that is not physically attached to anyone and is given nutrients through outside sources. There is a difference but you refuse to accept this because apparently if something might die it’s okay to kill it? Which was NEVER the discussion. you keep bringing this fallacy up which holds no water. You also need to stop trying to use the very obviously out dated and inhumane laws about ways people are mistreated to argue your point. whenever life does start, however, it should never trump the woman’s already established life and that is the issue, people are using the argument for when life begins to restrict and control women and force them to go through a pregnancy she may not want. If the woman does not want to have a baby she should not be forced, and keep in mind how rare late term abortions are, which is what you keep arguing about. It’s even more rare for a woman to just decide late in the pregnancy she wants an abortion because she doesn’t want it anymore. If that has ever happened at all. Late term abortions are always, ALWAYS done because the child has something wrong and won’t survive literally hours after birth if that, or a woman that wanted an abortion early on was given the run around to try and make her keep it against her will and she is willing to risk her life to get rid of it. Never once has someone gone “Eh, its just as likely to die in a week as it is to die in 80 years, might as well abort” there is a GIANT DIFFERENCE between a blastocyst or embryo that is just as likely to detach and die before the woman even realizes she is pregnant as it is to form into a fully formed baby. That right there is the distinction for me, when it cannot become anything other than a baby successfully living and surviving outside the mothers body. And I’m going to say this now before you try to use it as an argument, I am NOT saying it has to be born to be considered it’s own life, it just has to be viable. A viable fetus cannot become anything other than a baby, unlike the blastocyst which could turn into a normal cyst or tumor.
  8. Just because the information is there does not mean it will always become a viable baby. The notion of when life begins is tied to when an individual is given rights, and a potential life that may not even survive to birth, which is NOT the same as an already born baby that might die, should not have rights which trump those of the already established life of the mother should she make the decision to abort.
  9. No one would ever abort because the embryo might die, and that was not the issue we were discussing. The issue is discussing when life begins, and rather than relying on faith I rely on science which shows that at the blastocyst stage it has nothing that would categorized it as a living individual human, and to me that indicates that it’s life has not yet begun.
  10. @olympe there is a distinction between an unborn child and a born child. And there is no point in killing a baby that’s already been born because it might die from SIDS. Not to mention we are talking about a blastocyst, which has huge differences from a 40+ week old baby. @Laryal this might be a personal question, but do you ever feel urges and masturbate? Guess what, that’s you answering the call to mate. It’s that very same urge people feel that lead them to have sex with others. And don’t start off by saying it’s not, or that everyone should masturbate instead of have sex during ovulation. I also need to ask that you not call us murderers or baby killers as that is harassment and you have already been warned. It’s no where near true, just you getting emotional. If I were to get pregnant, and if it isn’t from rape, I would keep it and love it. I want to have children yet may not get the chance since I have polycystic ovarian syndrome. Unlike you, I don’t feel a need to force other women to have children they do not want and will never love or care for because I won’t get the chance. It’s very irresponsible to think just because a woman’s body is capable that means she has the mental durability, financial stability, or even the life style to take care of it. And I don’t understand how you can claim that teaching teens sex ed including proper use of pills, protection, and concent would make even more unwanted babies. Especially since research and data show the complete opposite. Countries and even states with comprehensive sex ed have far far fewer unwanted and or teen pregnancies than those that teach abstinence. Some schools don’t teach sex ed at all, or you are not allowed to take it because your parents won’t let you.
  11. I would have to disagree with the notion life begins between fertilization and implantation. It’s still extremely possible for it to detach or for a miscarriage to happen, likely going completely unnoticed. It’s also still possible for it to simply die with no idea what the cause is. There isn’t even the beginning of any kind of system, it’s just a cell continuously multiplying/dividing itself (I can’t remember the correct term) because that is all it’s programed to do at the point of implantation. I can understand why you might believe it starts there, but I don’t think it’s right for something that is still microscopic and won’t be known about for several weeks to have priority over the mother.
  12. Laryal you are not making any kind of valid argument, only repeating fallacies like if it’s okay to kill a potential human it’s okay to kill an already established person with memories and experiences. Or that newborns should be killed because they might die later in life like as an adult. As well as trying to shock us with images. And I agree you are being very silly asking if it’s animal dna, especially after a couple of us gave you answers to your questions. That simply shows you will not accept any answer from us “heartless and inhumane” people. Can you please try to show us that you are here to have an actual discussion, rather than to argue and get angry?
  13. I agree, if a woman doesn’t want to give her embryo up and end up having the child find them in adulthood they should not be forced to do so just like normal pregnancy and abortion. It’s human in the sense it’s made of human cells, but keep in mind tumors and cysts are also made of human cell. Just because it’s made of human cells does not mean it is a human itself, not until it has developed enough to be its own person. Does that answer your questions, Laryal?
  14. It might be more possible than you realize, as science is currently working on artificial wombs. They’ve successfully grown full term lambs last time I read about it, don’t know how well the lambs survived afterwards though. It could be something they start testing with humans in some years or decades. though the issue would not be the existence of an artificial womb, but rather the ability for an embryo already attached with a placenta to survive being removed from its mother and implanted into the artificial womb or the womb of another woman. In vitro, the closest example we might have, implants multiple eggs about 4-5 days after being fertilized. That’s the same amount of time it takes for a fertilized egg to travel down the Fallopian tube into the uterus. It’s different than implanting an embryo a few weeks to a couple months old.
  15. I’m not talking about babies being left to die because they are a girl. It’s a whole different story if the child is being left to die because of its sex, than if a woman, not wanting the child no matter the gender, decides to give birth which could kill her in the process and let the newborn die, than to take abortive herbs which could easily be measured out for her and is much less likely to kill her in the process. You made the claim that women back then gave birth and let the child die rather than abort, because they could die from the herbs. There was no mention of it being because of the babies sex, you claimed it was because they could die from the abortive herbs. Yet you seemed to fail in realize that even today giving birth puts the mothers life at risk, and back then there were no blood transfusions or emergency surgery to save the mother. I don’t dispute the claim baby girls were left to die in Ancient Greece, I dispute the claim Ancient women would rather give birth and leave the baby to die than take herbs and medication to induce miscarriage/abortion which I believe had a much lower death rate.
  16. Can I get the source for your claim that women back then would rather give birth and kill the newborn than take an abortive herb? Because if my memory is correct, giving birth was just as deadly if not more so because of the lack of proper medical procedures. It was common for women to bleed out or have other such complications that would result In their death. also, like any medication those herbs would be tested and the doctors would know around how much a woman should take to abort the fetus but not kill her. even animals such as wolves will purposely eat abortive herbs to abort their litters.
  17. of course when a woman is considering abortion the thought of ending a potential life is present, and it’s what makes abortion such a big issue. It’s not taken as lightly as we are discussing it when a woman is actually considering it. It’s a very big and important decision, with possible physical, psychological, and/or emotional effects on the mother. In the end it is what the woman decides is best whether that be keeping it or terminating. And if abortion is best it should be easily accessible as early as possible.
  18. I’ll say this, no matter the terminology it doesn’t change the importance of abortions /contraceptives being available to those that need them. To me the term makes no difference as to what it is: Human or nonhuman, parasite or beneficial. It’s still a potiental life that could perish before birth (or right after in some cases) and does not trump the already established life of the mother that is suffering. and what happened/s in the past or in under developed countries does not, and should not determine what we do or how we treat already born babies. The whole dowry thing is out dated and impractical in modern society, it only made sense back when marriage was about territory/land/property/slavery. I know you are trying to argue where the line is and when it becomes not okay, but it’s been stated countless times that it’s about viability. An already born baby is viable, one still developing its spine and nervous system is not.
  19. That brain doesn’t even have all its wrinkle/ridges yet, which are very important in increasing the surface area for neurons, which are basically what makes us intelligent.
  20. I would like to point out the biggest reason newborns may not have been considered part of society in ancient times is because of how common it was for children to die within their first few years of life. The parents didn’t want to become too attached to the child if it was going to die before the age of 4. But just because it was okay back then doesn’t mean it’s okay to kill already born happy babies today, with that logic we should bring back slavery and blood letting.
  21. No one ever said they wanted all embryo/fetus killed. We just want the option to have safe and early abortions for all women that require them. Also you talk about fetuses as though they are all fully formed when they are not. You are talking about fetuses at the very end of gestation where they are basically already a baby but haven’t been born yet. That is not the same as a fetus at the beginning or middle of its phase as a fetus. And I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “able to move on their own”. I was moving my head on my own at only a few hours old, does that count? Newborns and babies a few weeks old can move around, they just can’t relocate themselves from one place to another and I know babies are aware of themselves before they start crawling/walking from watching my cousins. You also cannot compare modern society to Ancient Greece, and places nowadays that will kill a newborn simply for their gender or overpopulation laws. Places that do that are not in line with places that are more scientifically advanced. They are either communists or religious zealots. reminds me how so many religious people insist life starts at conception yet in the Bible it’s clear they think life doesn’t begin until birth. the bottom line difference is viability, an embryo is not viable, a fetus might be viable but still has the chance to not be, babies that no longer need to leech nutrient from the mother via placenta are viable, a growing child is viable, adults are viable. No one here has ever said that we should kill viable babies, and if the pro-life people would stop keeping women from a receiving safe early abortions the issue of late-term abortions wouldn’t be NEARLY as big as it is. The only late term abortions that should be done are those in which there is no chance of survival for the child or if they do survive their life will be nothing but a painful hell or blackness as they are a vegetable. Sadly that is not the case, but if we work together for better women’s health rights and proper sex education along with easily obtainable contraceptives we can drastically cut down on abortion rates. Just look and some of the Scandinavian countries.
  22. the thing you don’t seem to understand is that an unborn embryo/fetus is not the same as a baby that’s already been born. You also cannot equate an already living person with memories and experiences with something not even aware of its own existence. Your argument is nothing but a fallacy, and not a very good one either. If we killed living babies because they might die as an adult there would be no adults to reproduce and the human race would die out. That’s not even close to the same thing as abortion. Also what does being infertile have to do with anything? You think that we would feel the same about people that can’t reproduce? That’s just asinine, and insulting because I’m infertile. we that are pro-choice advocate for the CHOICE to keep or abort depending on the woman carrying (that does not mean we are okay with women using it as an alternate for birth control like was mentioned before. Whom I think just had no idea how the pill works). If they want it and plan to keep it, wonderful! If it would be overwhelming and a toll on them mentally, physically, financially, etc then the option to abort should be available to them early on with no hoops to jump through that would keep them from aborting until it’s too late or close to it. We are not pro-abortion as that would mean we wanted every woman to abort, and advocated for forced abortion which we do not at all. That takes away their choice, the exact thing we don’t want to happen. Also if you pro-lifers are so against late term abortions maybe you shouldnt force women that want to terminate early on to wait. No law will stop someone if they want it bad enough and that includes abortions. It’s pro-lifers that want the baby born but are against government support that would keep that family above water, and healthy. That is not pro-life, that is pro-forced birth because once the baby is born you guys couldn’t care less. Also none of you have answered us in why you think the woman’s already established life is less important than a POTENTIAL life that may not even make it to birth. A potential human still developing within the womb does not have the same personhood as an already existing person. Even newborns have personhood, but an embryo/fetus still within the womb unable to form memories with its partially formed brain or feel anything with its partially developed nervous system does not.
  23. It is very possible for that clump of cells to not turn into a human baby. It could turn into a tumor or something else non-viable. It’s kind of ignorant to think it will always turn into a healthy baby. Also you are not doing yourself any favors linking to obviously biased websites that are anti-choice/pro-forced birth. I would also like to point out a friend of mine would troll those calling themselves pro-life with a picture of an elephant fetus and saying it’s not a human. Because of how similar mammalian fetuses look everyone was fooled, even me at first, into assuming it was human.
  24. it’s not the heart that indicates life, even brain dead people have a heart beat. It’s the beings ability to survive and live a hopefully normal life. A baby after birth is able to look around and see things, create it’s very first memories. Even at a few hours old I was looking around the nursery where the newborns were kept. I was aware of my surroundings and that they were different. A fetus, still requiring the placenta it’s attached to, cannot do such things. Only after it can be considered viable does that change. I hope things have been cleared up, and I agree if a viable fetus is alive after the procedure and it does not have deadly birth defects it should still be given a chance to live and be given to a family that would want it. But please keep in mind late term abortions are extremely rare and only done for the sake of the child/mother’s health whether that be physical or mental.