Posted May 16, 2010 (edited) Instead of the no-aid line being "Please note that it is against the site rules to give aid to a user without their permission," phrase it more directly. "This user is not accepting aid," for instance. Random progress: In a help topic about a case of unwanted "help" [or malicious action, not sure] it came up that one person hadn't understood the don'give aid messsage, so perhaps there could be a clearer message, that perhaps gives a more dire warning [can get your scroll burned, perhaps, even if it isn't ever triggered, and I'm sure there are chronic bombers that it should be triggered on...] The Ones with the burning message included could easily be modified to remove it if it isn't desired. Some suggestions from that or this thread: "It is against the rules to give a dragon (or egg/hatchling) views without their owner's permission" <- could make people think that just looking at dragons is against the rules... "It is against the rules to increase the number of views that dragons that are not on your scroll get without permission" "Posting people's dragons without their permission is against site rules and could result in your own scroll being burned." <- might cause confusion due to the word "posting" not being very applicable to fansites "Adding dragons to websites without permission is against site rules and could result in your own scroll being burned." "It is against the rules to give an egg or hatchling views or to link to it on any other website, without its owner's permission. If you do, it could result in your own scroll being burned." <- the "give an egg or hatchling views" as it is could make people think that just looking at dragons is against the rules... PF edit: Another possibility would be to have three messages. As it is a decent number of "helpers" assume that anyone with the "no aid" message and who they think might be a newbie just didn't know that they could choose to accept aid. A third message that is an adamant "no!" would prevent that. Another thing to consider is to have three messages for the aid thing. The default would be the current default message or a clarified version such as one of the ones above. And those who choose to accept aid would have the current message for aid. Those who absolutely do not want help can have something strongly worded, like the ones below. Perhaps with something about the site rules in there too. Like "And if you add them without permission you are breaking the site rules." on the first, third, fourth, and fifth ones, perhaps removing the without permission bits on the first, third, and fifth if you do. The others could have their own rules versions. Some of these might be good default messages as well. "Third message" ideas are: "I know what I am doing and do not want any help. I will be very angry with you if you add my eggs to websites without my permission!" "Do not try to give this user any help. They do not want any." "Do not add this user's dragons to websites without permission. They do not want any help." "This user does not want help raising their dragons." "This user is refusing all assistance. Do not add their dragons to any websites without permission." Edited July 13, 2012 by Pokemonfan13 Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 Personally, I think reminding people that it is against the site rules is a good thing. It sends a much less ambivalent message. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 I think the way it is now gives more of a warning to someone not to give aid than just blatantly stating it would. Mentioning that it breaks the rules will deter more people from giving aid than if it just said that they aren't accepting aid. Being that there isn't a 'rules' page, it's a good idea to put that it's against the rules somewhere, if it is against the rules. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 Its stated that way because people would still post eggs/hatchlings that do not belong to them when they see its low on views and usually that messes up negleted experiments to the point of makeing people extreamlly angry. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 (edited) "This user is not accepting aid. Please note that it is against the site rules to give aid to a user without their permission," then. "Please note etc etc" by itself comes off as a general warning, rather than a really wishy-washy way of saying "This user doesn't want you to aid them." Edited May 16, 2010 by Nashlina Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 I actually have to agree. Just placing the warning up there just means it is a warning. Now if you said that they were not accepting aid along with the warning it would actually mean something. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 "This user is not accepting aid. Please note that it is against the site rules to give aid to a user without their permission," then. "Please note etc etc" by itself comes off as a general warning, rather than a really wishy-washy way of saying "This user doesn't want you to aid them." I would agree with this as well. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 (edited) I like the warning that exists now, but I also agree that we could use a more direct "and btw, this user hasn't given you permission to help them, so gtfo." Or other words to that effect. Edited May 16, 2010 by ~!~ Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 I think the warning needs to be 'louder' as well. It's in italics the same way as the 'accepting aid' line and I wonder if people just look for an italicized line rather then reading the line. Example: Unwanted Helper: "Oh, this egg/hatchling is low on time!" *looks at the page, sees the italic line at the bottom but doesn't read it* "OK, accepting aid is active, time to ER this poor thing" They see the italic line and assume it reads 'accepting aid'. So...make the 'not accepting aid' different some how, like putting it in bold instead.... Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 It originally was "this user is not accepting aid" but I told him immediately that the two phrases were too similar. The "not" could be easily missed. The longer phrase makes it instantly obvious that it is not the accepting aid message. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 16, 2010 I agree that "This user is not accepting aid. Please note that it is against the site rules to give aid to a user without their permission." is perfect. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 17, 2010 Maybe a nice simple "Do not post this egg/hatchling anyplace without the owner's permission." The whole not accepting aid thing is vague. I remember when I started I had no idea what that was supposed to mean. What kind of aid? How would I aid them? Why would they not want me to? It should say what it means and not a complicated euphemism, imo. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) I have to agree with Sadako. I've seen multiple threads going "what is aid? what does that mean? how *can* I aid? Why does that say that?" etc etc. The most common is "what does it mean to accept aid?". That tells me right there that some, maybe many, people simply don't get what "accept aid" actually means. If we truly want the no-aid message to STOP people from posting our eggs, it needs to be as clear and straightforward as possible. Just noting that it's against the rules to "give aid" without permission is not straightforward at all if people don't even know what giving aid means. Edited May 17, 2010 by Marie19R Share this post Link to post
Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) What I wish is that there was a third, more neutral default setting. Right now it is incredibly easy for helpers to assume that someone just doesn't know it can be changed and thus help on the offchance that they really would want help if they knew the feature existed. If you had to manually change it to explicitly say that you do not want help and that would let would be helpers actually know that that is your true position. Plus, I would like a neutral option in general because that is how I feel about helping with my eggs. I do not want to actually ask for help, but neither do I want to absolutely forbid it. Edited May 17, 2010 by Nectaris Share this post Link to post
Posted May 17, 2010 But you aren't "asking" for help when you accept aid. It simply means that you are okay with it if someone wants to help your dragons. It's just a little line at the bottom of the dragon's page, so it's not like you are asking someone "hey, can you help me?" or anything like that. I definitely don't see any reason for a third option. Either you want people to LAY OFF your eggs, or you are okay with them helping. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) But you aren't "asking" for help when you accept aid. It simply means that you are okay with it if someone wants to help your dragons. It's just a little line at the bottom of the dragon's page, so it's not like you are asking someone "hey, can you help me?" or anything like that. I definitely don't see any reason for a third option. Either you want people to LAY OFF your eggs, or you are okay with them helping. People interpret it as asking for help though. I certainly did and I know I can't be the only one. Even if no one wanted a third option for that purpose, there is still the point that as not accepting aid is default, it leaves people wondering if that is what they really meant. If people had to change it to say they were not accepting aid at all, then there would not be any ambiguity, or at least less of it. Edited May 17, 2010 by Nectaris Share this post Link to post
Posted May 17, 2010 There are two kinds of people not accepting aid. One is who doesn't want it, and the other didn't bother to set it yet. With the current "it is against the rules...." we can't (usually) tell which group does the scroll owner belong to. Currently, it is against the rules to help a newbie until they read the FAQ. I see the point in this. But displaying "The owner of this dragon doesn't want help" would not be OK.... Share this post Link to post
Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) Ultimately, I want something that clearly tells people to back up off my eggs. Not something that people can look over as a "maybe they just don't know" or a "it is against the rules." Someone can look at that and say, well, they didn't tell me not to... *postpostpost* I don't want to have to completely hide my scroll in order to conduct neglected experiments. Perhaps there could be three options, like: 1.) This person requests aid. 2.) This person is accepting aid. 3.) This person DOES NOT want aid. And have the default be "accepting aid," since it's more of a neutral "I don't care" sort of option. (Yay for thread necro!) Edited April 8, 2011 by FireAngel73 Share this post Link to post
Posted April 8, 2011 Er, I don't really get the three options. If people would really rather three options, I think: -requesting aid (as we have now) -reminder to ask before adding (the not accepting aid we have now) -do not add (change wording to specifically state you do not want aid) With the default either on the neutral message or the do not add message. :3 Share this post Link to post
Posted April 8, 2011 ^ What Sock said. I like those options best, with the neutral message being the default. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) Well, just the general "Yes please" "I don't care" or "ask first" "Back off" options. I don't really care much how it's phrased so long as the general message is received. Because there are people on all three levels, newer members who definitely want and need help, older members who do not want help (like people doing ND experiments), and the others who don't really care. Edited April 8, 2011 by FireAngel73 Share this post Link to post
Posted April 8, 2011 I think the existing message is fine as far as what it conveys to people about posting other people's eggs to viewing sites. However, what I initially found unclear was that if I posted my own eggs to viewing sites, would the owners of those viewing sites be found in violation of the Dragon Cave site rules if I did that while I had the "not accepting aid" flag turned on. After all, I figured that "not accepting aid" meant not just putting someone else's egg on a viewing site, but also putting the URL on my personal web site - which is in effect what a viewing site does. And, how is TJ supposed to tell that an egg placed on a viewing site was placed there by its owner? So, in addition to a "not accepting aid" flag, a higher-level flag that says "and I haven't put this egg on any viewing sites myself, and am only getting views for it from putting it on my web page or forum signatures" would make it easier for TJ to check things - and it would make it easier for the viewing sites to check things. That flag, though, should really be settable on a per-dragon basis. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 8, 2011 So, in addition to a "not accepting aid" flag, a higher-level flag that says "and I haven't put this egg on any viewing sites myself, and am only getting views for it from putting it on my web page or forum signatures" would make it easier for TJ to check things - and it would make it easier for the viewing sites to check things. This happens? I like to post my own dragons to fansites -- but I want to do it on my terms. For instance, if I'm doing a ND experiment, I'll obviously need to post them to fansites...but I have to do it on my own timing, not just when some "helper" comes along and goes "oh my!" Not accepting aid generally refers to "I'll post or not post my own dragons" and accepting aid generally means "you can post my eggs if you want"... Share this post Link to post
Posted April 8, 2011 This happens? If you mean the viewing sites checking things... well, I know of one small, friendly viewing site that only lets you put dragons on the site, but not take them off, because the operator is worried people might maliciously remove dragons. That site happens to use the Dragon Cave API, so I suggested using the "verify login" feature, that it uses for its scroll banner, for removal - and placement, because maliciously putting a dragon up, which can lead to sickness, was, to my mind, a more serious problem. The idea is that if I could set a flag that says "no viewing site should accept this dragon", then, unlike a flag that says "please don't put my dragons on viewing sites for me", that flag would be unambiguous, and viewing sites could automatically test the flag and act on it. Naturally, it would take time before the viewing sites could write new code to respect the flag, so this wouldn't give perfect safety, but I thought it would be potentially useful. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) I would think that if fansites were somehow against the whole "no aid" rule, we would've heard about it looooooong before now. There's tons and tons of threads here about different fansites, and TJ has even posted in some of them... If fansites in general went against this rule, he would've said so. This is basically what I said in the thread that got closed as a duplicate: I know that trolls or mean people aren't going to be stopped by better/clearer wording, but the site can at least do it's best to be clear about what the scroll-owner wants. Right now, looking at one of my eggs/hatchlings gives you a "(Please note that it is against the site rules to give aid to a user without their permission.)" at the bottom of their page. However, what exactly does that mean? Am I "giving permission" if I post my eggs on fansites? A lot of people think so. A lot of people think that eggs on fansites are fair game to post regardless of the message, because why else would the person be posting their eggs there? (I have actually encountered this before) The whole wording is very unclear, and I would definitely like an option to say "I do NOT accept aid, do NOT post my dragons anywhere!". Or somesuch. Edited April 8, 2011 by Marie19R Share this post Link to post
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