2015-12-03 - Sprite Update (Round Two)

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Someone did suggest adding a new set of silvers WITHOUT retiring the old ones, though. I think adding a 'bright silver' with a different pose than the originals, and slowly (ie over a year) moving the old silvers down in rarity to somewhere between current coppers and current silvers, might've been ok.

[schenanigans]

Someone did suggest adding a new set of silvers WITHOUT retiring the old ones, though. I think adding a 'bright silver' with a different pose than the originals, and slowly (ie over a year) moving the old silvers down in rarity to somewhere between current coppers and current silvers, might've been ok.

I like that idea a lot, even if it's a bit late for it now.

 

LadyLyzar's other Silvers, with a completely different pose, were very pretty. With a few tweaks that would be a nice addition, imo. Of course, there's probably a lot of other options and renditions out there, but I saw those and thought they looked nice

[NotBambi]

The forum represents users who make forum accounts, write in English, and then choose to comment. Unless TJ comes in to say otherwise, you will never convince me that the people commenting on the forum represent a majority of DC users. I believe the number of active scrolls at any given time far outpace the number of active forum users in the same period.

 

Personally, I would be happy to feel foolish if we knew for a fact the forum user/scroll user ration. Until then, no one should be claiming a majority or minority in any forum disagreement.

 

Also, you can't have it both ways when it comes to pixel art. Either these dragons need to be realistic to anatomy that exists in the real world, or they are mere pixel art, which means fantasy, which means they don't have to be anatomically correct. I've seen people making statements on both sides of that argument.

You're right. Actually I think that the people posting on the forum are just a small percentage of the user base and that the "quite vocal" ones are a tiny, insignificant minority. I'm sure that TJ knows everything about the level of activity in DC, relative trends and the data necessary for cost-benefit analysis and implementation decisions. We do not.

[Obscure_Trash]

Someone did suggest adding a new set of silvers WITHOUT retiring the old ones, though. I think adding a 'bright silver' with a different pose than the originals, and slowly (ie over a year) moving the old silvers down in rarity to somewhere between current coppers and current silvers, might've been ok.

This entirely defeats the purpose, so I'm glad we didn't go that route.

[Tehya Faye]

This entirely defeats the purpose, so I'm glad we didn't go that route.

I'm also glad we didn't go that route because then I'd have to hunt for Silvers all over again. I'd be outraged, far more than if an update happened that I didn't care for. >_> Doing it the opposite way (replacing the existing Silvers and making the old ones available separately in the cave) also would have upset loads of people. It's just a bad idea all around, probably even for the easy to get commons.

[Aang]

I understand the desire to improve your work as your skills increase, but feel that is better shown through the addition of new work instead of reworking the old. I'm no artist, but I am a writer. Once I have given a story to the public, I would never dream of taking it away from them so I can improve it. I have, and likely will always re-read my work and see things wrong with it that I would love to correct or simply say in another "better" way. Instead, I write a new story for my readers to enjoy while fulfilling my need to continually improve my skills.

As an artist, this paragraph made me rage internally for a few seconds.

 

If I'm doing art for a website and I find that after a few years of working on my art style, the old stuff I drew makes me cringe? You can bet your left foot that I won't want old, cringeworthy art representing me as an artist and if the art is still in use, I will gladly put in my time to redraw it and offer whoever is using it on whichever site the newly redrawn version as a replacement -or- ask that they remove my old art from their site.

 

On a more personal note, as my art style gets more refined and looks better, I will continue to redraw my own OCs so that they look up to date with the newer characters in the story. Shoot, I will even rewrite a story if I feel it's bad enough to warrant the rewrite.

 

If you don't like people to change the art you love, adoptable and petsites probably aren't for you. Most petsites revamp their artwork at least once if they have been around as long as DC has, and most also will not change back to the old art because of people whinging about how awful the art is. I saw that happen only once and only because an overwhelming majority of the active players all objected to the update and the artist themselves asked that the image be reverted to the old style to stop the bashing.

[NotBambi]

I saw that happen only once and only because an overwhelming majority of the active players all objected to the update and the artist themselves asked that the image be reverted to the old style to stop the bashing.

I'm glad this is not the case. There's no majority of active players objecting and LadyLyzar sounds like she is made of sterner stuff

[Jazeki]

Honestly, I wasn't going to say anything else beyond my piece however many fewer pages back, but the idea of silvers being one of the only flagship dragons of DC/ each biome and thus needing such an extreme update is subjective.

 

When I think of DC, I do not think of silvers or golds. When I share DC with other people, I start with my favorite holiday dragons (like the sweetling or the solstice) and move to other breeds I like. When I think of each biome, I think of biome specific breeds. If anything, the prizes are now the flagship breeds because many new users flock to DC and ask about how raffles work.

 

I like the adult lady silver sprite. I do not like the adult male. I do not like the hatchies. I dislike how the silvers look in lineages. I think they look much different than the other sprites in the game so far.

 

I understand that the sprites will continue to update because that is what TJ wants, but I do not think that such updates should be championed in an effort to belittle older sprites or the opinions of other users who may not be so favorable towards changes.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Aang, the problem is, on DC the art IS the game, more or less. On things like neopets and flight rising and such, you have dozens of ways to interact with your critters. You can play games with them, apply special skins and costumes, go and do battle, yadda yadda yadda. On DC, however, there's... really nothing to do but collect and build with things that look pretty. So when you change art on DC, and risk making things people once loved into things they dislike (or even simply like less), you do far more damage here then you would do in those other places, which is why I believe if updates must happen they must be done extremely conservatively (ie, hollies / splits, not silvers / nilias), and only for art that's years old and really fallen behind current standards (namely, things that were made during the fog and had limited palettes and limited time to pick the best designs). Once something has been put out for public use, especially on a game where we have such limited interaction with our dragons, it shouldn't be swapped out wily-nily.

 

The blanket example has come up a few times. If someone gave you a free, nicely made blanket, that's very kind of them. If, however, after you've taken it home and grown fond of it, they pop in one day and change the blanket to include all sorts of new patterns and colors because they feel it better shows what they're capable of artistically... that's not cool. Free or not, done with love or not, old looking or not, it was already given and shouldn't be yanked away and replaced carelessly. Small mends, of course, are a different matter (as a DC analogue, the relatively small updates we've had to the female purple and whiptail dragons, and to a more drastic but still controlled extent, again, the hollies / splits).

 

I'm an artist / writer with deep, deep attachments to my creations myself, but given all of the above, I still don't think it's right to change sprites on here without a profoundly good reason to do so (ie, serious anatomical flaws), and even then changes should try to keep as much of the old spirit as possible.

[NotBambi]

The blanket example has come up a few times. If someone gave you a free, nicely made blanket, that's very kind of them. If, however, after you've taken it home and grown fond of it, they pop in one day and change the blanket to include all sorts of new patterns and colors because they feel it better shows what they're capable of artistically... that's not cool.

If I may... I was thinking .... we never take the blanket home... our scrolls stay in DC and (not saying that would happen) they can be changed or even deleted. We do not own them. Actually we don't even rent them since this is a free site.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

If I may... I was thinking .... we never take the blanket home... our scrolls stay in DC and (not saying that would happen) they can be changed or even deleted. We do not own them. Actually we don't even rent them since this is a free site.

Semantics. We generate profit for TJ via ad revenue. Many of us donate. I've personally submitted free art to the game for TJ to use to keep it going and lots of others have as well. DC isn't a private game between friends, it's a public and profiting game (admittedly, I don't know how MUCH it profits, but the money going in has to be going somewhere). Drastic sprite changes--and again I'm talking really drastic, here, not just tiny shading tweaks and sprucing-ups--can make people feel like the work they've put in collecting and building lines with certain dragons has been totally undone. If the silvers had been this way from the start, I'd have been happy building things with them, but since the original silvers looked a fair bit different, I now feel a lot of my things don't look as great as they used to and have thus been permanently undone, which is not good for a site hoping to profit.

 

And again and I can't stress this enough, I don't feel that's the case with ALL sprite updates, or even MOST sprite updates, I'm just talking about the really drastic ones.

Edited December 6, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Aang]

A sprite on DC =/= a blanket.

 

Personally, if someone did give me a blanket and I gave it back to them to be mended instead of mending it myself, I would expect that where I would only stitch a tear shut so as not to ruin the blanket, the person who originally made it might feel it's better to replace an entire square with a new one than to leave the ugly scars of stitched up tears all over it.

 

To say I was crushed when Neopets did the mass update of their art and switched every last pet image would be an understatement. Regardless of what else you can do with the "pets" on a site like that, you probably have the pets you have because you liked how they looked, yes? And if it changes to something you don't like, you still just lost a lot of work saving up for that Plushie Paintbrush when the plushie pets got changed to no longer look like stuffed toys and now you hate that stupid pose where they always have to hold something in their hands.

 

Was I also annoyed I only had time to grab two bright pinks before the sprite change on pinks? Yes I was. I still am annoyed about that to be honest.

 

I'm not saying don't be upset when your favorite art gets updated.

 

I'm saying that change is inevitable with art on any pet/adoptable site and whining about it won't make TJ or the spriters leave antiquated art on the site.

 

That said, I love the new silvers. It makes me feel less guilty about the silvers I own. I grabbed them because of rarity, not because of how pretty they were--I hated the old art--and I always felt I should have left them for someone who loved them. Now that I like them, I'm glad I collected the dozen or so that I have.

[NotBambi]

Semantics. We generate profit for TJ via ad revenue. Many of us donate. I've personally submitted free art to the game for TJ to use to keep it going and lots of others have as well. DC isn't a private game between friends, it's a public and profiting game (admittedly, I don't know how MUCH it profits, but the money going in has to be going somewhere). Drastic sprite changes--and again I'm talking really drastic, here, not just tiny shading tweaks and sprucing-ups--can make people feel like the work they've put in collecting and building lines with certain dragons has been totally undone. If the silvers had been this way from the start, I'd have been happy building things with them, but since the original silvers looked a fair bit different, I now feel a lot of my things don't look as great as they used to and have thus been permanently undone, which is not good for a site hoping to profit.

 

And again and I can't stress this enough, I don't feel that's the case with ALL sprite updates, or even MOST sprite updates, I'm just talking about the really drastic ones.

Sigh. That does not change the fact that if tomorrow TJ was to decide to shut down or sell the site, our blankets would not be our blankets because they never were. Not saying that DC is not a public and/or profiting game (A dinnae ken and dinnae gei a monkey's) but I do not own any stock. Do you?

Edited December 6, 2015 by NotBambi

[SilverSimplicity]

I wasn't planning on posting in here but after reading through the thread I wanted to weigh in. It's kind of sad to me and a bit disheartening that anyone who is voicing their feelings on not liking the new silvers as much is being told they are wrong or that they are just 'complaining to complain' or that it must be that people don't like change or that they are nostalgically attached to the old sprites and those are the reasons that they are saying they don't like them. I don't think that's fair to say. Why can't someone just prefer the old sprite? Is it that hard to believe?

 

I never actually owned silvers until quite recently because I was never able to get one back when I started playing and only just now got my first in the last year when I returned and started playing again, so I am not nostalgically attached to them. I haven't complained once about anything else in this thread or elsewhere in the forums, so I'm not complaining to complain. Nor am I against change - I actually like the new updates to the splits, as most seem to, and the other sprite updates didn't bother me a bit.

 

However, while I don't dislike the new silver sprites, I'm not thrilled. I'll come around to them, I'm sure, but I feel that they lost some of their eastern characteristics. I thought this when I first saw the new sprites and before I ever saw someone else commenting that they have been westernized, but that's how I feel. And I'll explain why, since people seem to be adamant that they don't look western because they don't have wings.

 

Is not having wings what makes a dragon an eastern dragon? Any dragon that doesn't have wings would automatically be an eastern then, and any dragon with them would be a western, barring other species types like wyverns, etc. But can anyone look at the Radiant Angel, which has wings, and say "Oh yes definitely a western dragon"? No, it's described as a winged eastern, because of the way it looks, with the elongated, slender, tube-like body.

 

The old silver sprites had some of that. The male was curled to give the appearance of being long and coiled, like what you picture when you think of an eastern dragon. They had slender, tube-like bodies. The new sprite doesn't convey this. Instead they have the body type of a western dragon. They don't look long, or slender, or tube-like any longer. In fact, they look rather like greyhounds, with their large chests and narrow heads. To me, they look like a western dragon without wings, just as the Radiant Angel is an eastern dragon with wings. It's the pronounced chest that does it, I think. I know others will have a different opinion and that's totally fine and I respect that.

 

The sprites themselves are gorgeous, of course, and I will come around to like them, I'm sure. They just don't seem as much like eastern dragons to me anymore. I'm not saying that I don't want any more sprite changes. I'm not saying that I'm against updating the art on this site. I'm just saying that the new sprites are quite different from the old ones.

 

Also, I can understand why people are upset in regards to lineages. Many have worked for a long time to create lineages with these dragons, and the new shinyness and shading makes them not look as they had before, and possibly ruins the look of lineages that had months and even years of time poured into them.

 

So for those people who are saying that the reason people are complaining is for one of the reasons listed above, that's pretty rude. I'm not saying that you like the new sprite just because it's shinier or because it's newer and you must only like new things and have no appreciation for the older art, so it's not very nice to say to those of us who perhaps don't like it quite as much that we don't have valid reasons for feeling that way.

 

Anyway, sorry for writing a novel

Edited December 6, 2015 by SilverSimplicity

[Sir Barton]

I can't speak for why, other than perhaps the minimalist fanciers are the minority.

 

The problem I have with this is that your question could JUST as easily be asked the other way around. WHY should those that find that minimalist look flat, drab, dull and boring be stuck with it to please those that DO like it? The thing to remember is that that goes both ways. i am not saying this to downplay or belittle yoru opinion, which you have every right to hold. I am just saying that NOT everyone HAS the same opinions, and the BEST TJ can do is go with the majority.... someone is ALWAYS going to be unhappy whatever happens. ESPECIALLY as it happens that I thought in some cases the SPRITERS themselves were the ones pushing for updates.

 

As you say, there are a variety of dragons on DC, thankfully. SO no one is REALLY forced to collect anything they don' like.

 

I think the thing is that not all the artists see it as you do.

 

I can't speak for them, not being a spriter myself, but from my perspective the silvers didn't 'lose their soul'.

 

I would venture to say that plenty of others feel the same about it as I do.

The problem is that it one sided. Old sprites get polished, so it's the minimalist who gets left out. Historically, sprites get changed whether players wish for it or not, so it really doesn't go both ways. If it did, people who value the historic feel of a sprite would at least occasionally be thrown a bone and be assured that this sprite or that sprite wouldn't change. As it stands now, anything from the first few years of the site's creation is subject to change, or has already been changed. That leads many to question "why bother" in regards to lineages that won't remain true, collecting an army of a favorite dragon that could easily change into something no longer appealing to that individual, etc.

 

Out with the old and in with the new is an age old has become a rather standard train of thought. New is nearly always viewed as more desirable, but that isn't always the case. In this case, it's getting to the point where it doesn't just reference the new dragons, but players as well, which seems a shame. It's often, though certainly not always, the older players who have formed an attachment to the artwork and feel slighted by it's change. I already know many who have left or barely play due in a large part to these changes, and it can be something as simple as the newer, more intricate artwork being harder on their eyes. One of my friends said that over the last few years sprites have become too "busy" for her to make out the details so there isn't really a point in her playing like she used to.

 

It may not seem like a big deal since new players will come in to replace the old players, but is it really wise to exclude those who have proven their loyalty over the years in lieu of the new who may or may not stay the distance?

 

Food for thought.

 

And yes, I know that others don't see the updates as taking the soul of the dragon. That's why I said that was my opinion. When sprites change, they are no longer the dragon I caught. In my eyes they become a soulless imposture of my beloved dragon. I still mourn the loss of my first CB gold.

 

As an artist, this paragraph made me rage internally for a few seconds.

 

If I'm doing art for a website and I find that after a few years of working on my art style, the old stuff I drew makes me cringe? You can bet your left foot that I won't want old, cringeworthy art representing me as an artist and if the art is still in use, I will gladly put in my time to redraw it and offer whoever is using it on whichever site the newly redrawn version as a replacement -or- ask that they remove my old art from their site.

 

On a more personal note, as my art style gets more refined and looks better, I will continue to redraw my own OCs so that they look up to date with the newer characters in the story. Shoot, I will even rewrite a story if I feel it's bad enough to warrant the rewrite.

 

If you don't like people to change the art you love, adoptable and petsites probably aren't for you. Most petsites revamp their artwork at least once if they have been around as long as DC has, and most also will not change back to the old art because of people whinging about how awful the art is. I saw that happen only once and only because an overwhelming majority of the active players all objected to the update and the artist themselves asked that the image be reverted to the old style to stop the bashing.

That is why I only play DC instead of other adoptable sites. I don't appreciate having things I collect change. Once something is submitted to the public, the public that uses it should be able to expect some sort of stability.

 

This is something that we will simply have to agree to disagree on.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Sir Barton

[NotBambi]

And yes, I know that others don't see the updates as taking the soul of the dragon. That's why I said that was my opinion. When sprites change, they are no longer the dragon I caught. In my eyes they become a soulless imposture of my beloved dragon. I still mourn the loss of my first CB gold.

I can sympathize but... is there a solution? Because, while I can understanding you mourning the loss of your first CB Gold, I recall (as posted earlier) my horrified reaction when, due to a glitch, my golds were showing what I thought was a very ugly sprite instead of the usual one. That sprite was an old Gold, I just did not know.

 

Edit:

I do not want to offend anybody but... looking at the oldest Silver sprite in the wikia, does someone want to have it in their scroll?

Edited December 6, 2015 by NotBambi

[Spiteful_Crow]

I was here earlier and took the news (and the typical responses in this thread) pretty hard. Now that I'm back, I don't feel any better. I planned to make my own big long post, but I feel like it's not even worth bothering. I do agree with most of what was said in SilverSimplicity's post here, that probably articulates my own feelings better than I can right now.

 

The Silver change was something I was already expecting, and worrying about, but the change to the Splits completely blindsided me. As you can see by my sig, I love them and they were the very first dragon to become my favorite here on DC. Since then, they've had to compete with Nebulas and a few others for my affections, but they still make the top of my list. But while the new sprites aren't bad, per se (and that also applies to the Silvers) they don't feel like the same dragons to me anymore. I'm not a fan of the bunched-up, bulgy muscles, for one thing.

 

I'm not sure if there's anything else I can say that hasn't already been said, though. It's not like I'm not going to quit DC or throw a tantrum over this, but it's still dealt a blow to me. Is it silly to feel even slightly emotionally attached to sprites on a web game? Yeah, it is, but that's the reason why most of us are here, right? Because we get into the game and we enjoy it and love our silly little dragon sprites. Don't take this as being a "hater" or bashing sprite artists, some of us just don't like change. At the end of the day, the people running this site have the final say and I accept that, but it doesn't mean I'll always like that and I think certain people here could refrain from taking a disagreement or expression of disappointment as a personal attack.

[Jazeki]

 

Edit:

I do not want to offend anybody but... looking at the oldest Silver sprite in the wikia, does someone want to have it in their scroll?

Bambi, that sprite and many of the oldest sprites were "borrowed" from other places and thus needed to be replaced because they were breaking copyright laws.

[NotBambi]

Bambi, that sprite and many of the oldest sprites were "borrowed" from other places and thus needed to be replaced because they were breaking copyright laws.

I understand. That was not my point. My point was that people had those ugly things in their scroll and (I assume) many liked them. If copyright was not the issue, was TJ to keep them and avoid updating?

[Jazeki]

I understand. That was not my point. My point was that people had those ugly things in their scroll and (I assume) many liked them. If copyright was not the issue, was TJ to keep them and avoid updating?

I'm noting here (and not just via PM), there's a difference between needing to update because of copyright laws and choosing to update for the sake of uniformity or because someone has improved their artistic skills as a spriter.

 

TJ can do whatever he wants as it is his site, but that doesn't mean that users cannot react accordingly.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Jazeki

[Zovesta]

NotBambi, you continue to seem to be unable to believe that other people could like """""""""""""""""""ugly""""""""""""""""""" sprites. As a matter of fact, I always really liked the oldest female Silver sprite, and even had it saved to my computer for a time in a folder for sprite art that inspired me. The posing and beautifully shaded pink tum were brilliant. I'd like them on my scroll for sure. Keeping old art (not the copyrighted stuff) didn't seem like a problem to me. Anyone who spent more than half a minute on DC would see that there were a variety of dragons on the site, not just the old *cough* excuse me, """""""""""""""""""ugly""""""""""""""""""" ones. Adding a new metallic to the site that filled the gap that Silvers didn't, like a Chrome dragon, would have been just fine with me.

 

P.S. Sir Barton's post below mine is very true. I really liked my gold dragon, I believe Haleiro was my first one. It was such a unique sprite, it looked like an ancient drawing, and that made it seem super rare. The new ones are pretty, and I like them, but I still really miss my old gold and look at it on the wiki every so often.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Zovesta

[Sir Barton]

I can sympathize but... is there a solution? Because, while I can understanding you mourning the loss of your first CB Gold, I recall (as posted earlier) my horrified reaction when, due to a glitch, my golds were showing what I thought was a very ugly sprite instead of the usual one.  That sprite was an old Gold, I just did not know.

 

Edit:

I do not want to offend anybody but... looking at the oldest Silver sprite in the wikia, does someone want to have it in their scroll?

There is also the fact that the fog and sprite replacement of that original happened early on. I doubt most people had become attached to it, and lineages were in their infancy. Changes that occur now to dragons that have been standard for years, heading towards a decade, is quite a bit different. Users stand to lose a great deal more now.

 

I prefer the color of the old gold, as well as the design because it reminded me of an Aztec coin. That was why I wanted one in the first place. It looked like a doubloon to me, and that made it special. Now, she looks like any other dragon. *shrugs* I know that is just me. When that drastic update occurred, I was told that I would get used to it. I never have.

 

Edit: Zovesta, I would love a chrome dragon, but I was thinking more in line of platinum. I think that would be awesome, along with rose gold. With so many other metals or gem stones out there, I can't help feel it would be better to add new instead of reworking old.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Sir Barton

[NotBambi]

Adding a new metallic to the site that filled the gap that Silvers didn't, like a Chrome dragon, would have been just fine with me.

I stubbornly posted several times in the past months that I really really really wished for a new shiny "real rare", possibly more than one. We got a bunch of releases of blockers, commons, uncommons, almost rares in the last years but no real rares have been added (in the biomes) to the usual two: Golds and Silvers. If we had, dunno, 8 (or 16) real rares, the "Silver issue" probably wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Tehya Faye]

I think Silvers would have been updated even if we did get other rares.

[Sir Barton]

I stubbornly posted several times in the past months that I really really really wished for a new shiny "real rare", possibly more than one. We got a bunch of releases of blockers, commons, uncommons, almost rares in the last years but no real rares have been added (in the biomes) to the usual two: Golds and Silvers. If we had, dunno, 8 (or 16) real rares, the "Silver issue" probably wouldn't be an issue.

And that would be the solution. Add something new to the cave instead of mucking around with what's established and loved.

 

While I couldn't give a tinker's toot about rares because site value is meaningless to me, I would most likely be able to catch a pair at the release and be done with it. Everyone would have something new to chase and trade. Seems pretty win/win to me.