ANSWERED:Paid Perks

[Obscure_Trash]

So this stems from another thread, where I think the discussion kind of overwhelmed the original topic. I'd like to get all the paid perk discussion here so it is easier to find and in one place. ^^;;

 

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, not because I care about adding paid perks, but because I'm genuinely curious about how people feel about this subject.

 

How (in)significant does something have to be before it falls under being "pay to win?" Consider this thread: what benefit does changing an adult dragon's gender confer? Given that you can already influence, its only use is that it allows one to make the gender decision later on, or correct for a failed influence (which, when you consider that there's a 50% chance the egg is already the gender you want, influence is pretty unlikely to fail). So, is bypassing that failure chance "pay to win?" What are you really "winning" that other people aren't?

 

What about something that doesn't affect your dragons? For example, if someone could pay money to change their account's username (the payment acting as some sort of a barrier to discourage "abusing" the feature). Is that "pay to win?" Is that giving some people a material advantage over others?

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

 

I ask these things because there seems to be a complete and utter aversion to money whatsoever; an assumption that "pay to win" is the inevitable outcome, but I've seen plenty of successful free-to-play models that don't shaft people without money, so there seems to be a gap in understanding somewhere.

 

So are you completely against paid perks? Are there some things you'd be okay paying for? Are you completely for paid perks? What about things that aren't exactly "perks" (such as ad removal)?

 

The goal of my original post was to get opinions on the concept of some parts of the site having a paid component to them (which may or may not be accessible without paying).

 

Actually raising more money is in no way part of the motivation; I have a full-time job that isn't DC, so finding ways to make DC more profitable isn't in any way necessary.

 

This discussion is not about TJ's finances. It is about your opinions on paid components in DC.

Edited August 2, 2015 by SockPuppet Strangler

[SullenCat]

So are you completely against paid perks? Are there some things you'd be okay paying for? Are you completely against paid perks? What about things that aren't exactly "perks" (such as ad removal)?

a) Not against paid perks.

Would happily contribute to whatever TJ deems "extra" or i.e. requires funding to engage external resources

c) Would happily pay for "recognized" extras, i.e. Prizes, HM etc won in dumb-luck-raffles. If they can be "won" why not paid for?

 

[RecycledHeart]

I refuse to have any paid perks that affect actual gameplay like getting cb prizes or hms. Those are just dumb luck and I can live with it. But make it so if a person can pay for it, then it's actually going to become unfair. People with money to spare will rule the trade market and we're just now recovering from the whole mess prize breeding caused on it.

 

 

That said I'm not against paid perks for simple things like changing a username or buying old holiday minigames as someone said in the old thread.

[Jazeki]

So are you completely against paid perks? Are there some things you'd be okay paying for? Are you completely against paid perks? What about things that aren't exactly "perks" (such as ad removal)?

As I said in the other thread, I'm for paid perks. I'd be okay with paying for any feature or perk that was added that I found useful enough to pay for. I don't have money for any perks or anything right now, but I don't see why they shouldn't be added if enough people want them.

[AGYK]

Copying and pasting my post from the other thread.

 

How (in)significant does something have to be before it falls under being "pay to win?" Consider this thread: what benefit does changing an adult dragon's gender confer? Given that you can already influence, its only use is that it allows one to make the gender decision later on, or correct for a failed influence (which, when you consider that there's a 50% chance the egg is already the gender you want, influence is pretty unlikely to fail). So, is bypassing that failure chance "pay to win?" What are you really "winning" that other people aren't?

I casually don't support paid features - I don't think this particular thing as a paid feature would be strictly an issue, since most of us just use regular Influence, but in general I'm opposed to the concept of "pay-to-win".

 

What about something that doesn't affect your dragons? For example, if someone could pay money to change their account's username (the payment acting as some sort of a barrier to discourage "abusing" the feature). Is that "pay to win?" Is that giving some people a material advantage over others?

I have no problem with this either. There's no material advantage earned, and changing scrollname is kind of a niche need.

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

I guess this depends partly on what the currency is being used for, how easy it is to earn, and how much real money you spend. In general I would have no problem with this either, since free players aren't actually losing anything, it's just a convenience thing. But if the in-game currency is used for something significant (say, purchasing old CB holidays in the proposed store), has a relatively low value in itself (say, 10,000 DC$ for a dragon) and is hard to earn via in-game actions but cheap in terms of real money, I would be somewhat more unhappy about this since it becomes a real handicap for free players.

 

I ask these things because there seems to be a complete and utter aversion to money whatsoever; an assumption that "pay to win" is the inevitable outcome, but I've seen plenty of successful free-to-play models that don't shaft people without money, so there seems to be a gap in understanding somewhere.

I would guess this is a combination of the "slippery slope" argument, a userbase that may not have a ton of money to spare, and perhaps some first-hand experience with f2p things becoming pay-to-win. Although of course I can't begin to speak for the userbase or even strictly for myself, since I have no particular aversion to exclusively paid features or paid features that excessively handicap the free players.

[dragongrrl]

As I said in the other thread, "the advertising removal has always seemed like a legitimate paid feature, since the site does receive money from advertising. I don't think in-game features need to be paid, can't think of anything I would want that badly. Maybe a charge for changing a scroll or forum name would be reasonable, if it means that much to someone.

 

The one thing I would be interested in paying for are downloadable copies of some of the holiday events, especially the Gingerbread house and the Snow Fort. These were almost like pixel versions of Legos or Lincoln Logs to me, and the idea to be able to create and save an infinite variety of buildings and designs has always seemed like something I would enjoy when I want something to do offline. I missed the 2014 Christmas event, so I have no idea if it would be suitable, but this is the kind of thing that I would consider buying."

[OMGitsKairi]

Vehemently against paid gameplay perks.

 

Would not mind paid changes to scroll/forum names.

[Natayah]

Here are some types of Paid Perks that do not influence game play:

- Special Badge or Highlight on Forum/Scroll

- Possibly Ability to Change Scroll/Forum Name without Recreating (with limits for people attempting to defraud perhaps)

- Normal Fundraiser Gifts: Special Mug, Bag, Magnet, Signed Photo/Picture

- More Inbox Space on Forum

- VoiceMail Recording from TJ or Particular Artist/Mod

- Signed Thank You Card

- Random Auctioned real or computer generated personal Items Donated by Artists or Players (funds go to site or split with donator if artist or mod or something)

- Recording of Various Staff Singing Happy Birthday or Something Else (can be recorded across computers so they don't have to get together to do this)

- Personalized Art Stuff, which kinda goes with the Above

- Timed Skpe Chat with.... whoever.... wants to volunteer

- Pictures of various volunteer people doing silly but very G or such rated antics of your choice

- And if you happen to live in an area with someone, I guess you could always get a Lunch or something with a group of people, although you might also be able to get this for free so to be less creepy maybe a Skype lunch idk...

 

This theme isn't new.... But since someone suggested to me there weren't a lot of people posting perks that had no game benefit from them, I thought I'd just make a list to show that this can be done without going down the slippery slope into the evils of pay to win gaming.

Edited July 31, 2015 by natayah

[RecycledHeart]

Here are some types of Paid Perks that do not influence game play:

- Special Badge or Highlight on Forum/Scroll

- Possibly Ability to Change Scroll/Forum Name without Recreating (with limits for people attempting to defraud perhaps)

- Normal Fundraiser Gifts: Special Mug, Bag, Magnet, Signed Photo/Picture

- More Inbox Space on Forum

- VoiceMail Recording from TJ or Particular Artist/Mod

- Signed Thank You Card

- Random Auctioned real or computer generated personal Items Donated by Artists or Players (funds go to site or split with donator if artist or mod or something)

- Recording of Various Staff Singing Happy Birthday or Something Else (can be recorded across computers so they don't have to get together to do this)

- Personalized Art Stuff, which kinda goes with the Above

- Timed Skpe Chat with.... whoever.... wants to volunteer

- Pictures of various volunteer people doing silly but very G or such rated antics of your choice

 

This theme isn't new.... But since someone suggested to me there weren't a lot of people posting perks that had no game benefit from them, I thought I'd just make a list to show that this can be done without going down the slippery slope into the evils of play to win gaming.

Those I can live with. They don't affect gameplay so I have no issue with them.

[Tawanda001]

Against anything paid that affects actual game play. If that type of game is desired it's easy enough to find elsewhere. Lots of families play this game, having to pay for an entire family to get ingame advantages just doesn't seem like a good way to go.

 

[MessengerDragon]

The problem is, most things that people would deem useful enough to pay for are useful enough that it wouldn't be fair to deprive the rest of the userbase of them.

 

That and I'm generally against paid perks, though I guess I'm fine with ad removal because it isn't at all part of the actual game, whereas even the name change (apart from making people harder to identify) would be visible in-game, so I would be against it if it wasn't available to all.

[Gsea]

I'm okay with paid perks that don't leave other users feeling left out. In fact I'd love to pay to change my username (forum username specifically).

 

Flight Rising is an example of when paid perks goes too far. Real money translates to a virtual currency that can get you very desirable things. Users who don't pay often feel that they are missing out on these things. You can still earn that virtual currency in other ways without having to spend $$ but it is a tiresome process. It's probably the reason I ditched FR so quickly.

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

 

THAT ^ sounds like FR to me. I am very reluctant to put money into a virtual game. I have stuck with DC for so long because I have the same opportunities as everyone else. It's a simple game and I've never felt pressured to spend a cent. That's kind of rare to find in a good adoptables site. But if it so happens that I ever have to choose between 1) spending real $$ and 2) spending more time/effort than paying users, I'm probably going with secret option #3: bye, DC.

 

Paying to change your own dragon's gender? I'm all for it. It doesn't put you ahead of others.

Paying to change your username? Ditto.

Paying to spend less time and effort than users who can't pay because their parents won't allow it, they don't have the funds, etc.? Nope

[angelicdragonpuppy]

No paid perks that affect gameplay, please. I played flight rising for a bit and the amount of pay to play going on was awful. I'd hate to see that happen here

 

As others have said, though, some of the things like changing scroll names or even getting a donator badge would be totally fine. I understand that the more money the site makes the more time TJ can (hopefully) invest in it, I just don't want it to do so in ways that really pressure you to pay or miss out. I'd rather see a second small ad on every page before that!

Edited July 31, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Windnose]

Quoting my post from the other topic and putting it here. It's a tiny bit out of context, but I wanted to get my opinion in the relevant thread.

 

Something like changing the gender of an adult, unbred dragon through a paid feature is not what I would consider to be pay to win, especially since we have influence.

I wouldn't consider changing your account name a pay to win feature either.

Neither of the above would really affect me at all. These changes would only affect the scroll owner.

 

Now, purchasing some sort of in-game currency would be pay to win. Since DC doesn't have a literal currency, this would be something like buying eggs, especially uncommon-rare eggs. Or maybe buying an egg slot. I would also consider buying things that affect growing dragons pay to win. If a user can go without ever raising a BSA dragon because they can just buy Influence or Incubate, I would consider them "winning" over the users that have to take the time to raise the BSA dragons.

 

If a DC paid perk system stayed far away from offering things that would give other users an advantage over others, then I wouldn't care if there was one or not simply because it would not really ever affect me.

 

 

ETA: Someone mentioned something about resetting a refusal, so I wanted to add that I would consider that being a pay to win feature, especially since non-paying users (currently) wouldn't have a way to reset a refusal.

[Natayah]

The problem is, most things that people would deem useful enough to pay for are useful enough that it wouldn't be fair to deprive the rest of the userbase of them.

That is entirely not true. That is a bias or opinion you have. It is not a fact. In "fact", real life marketing and fundraising education and stats prove otherwise. Me ticking off a larger list is easy (which I could probably sit and come up with 100s more ideas although some of them are going to be a bit repetitive on certain themes, but they are still all "different") because that is what people who work in marketing, fundraising, business, and non-profits do for a living. It doesn't take a special skill set.

 

That being said, in addition to paid non-game changing perks, I would love the ability to bid or pay for items that have nothing to directly do with the game. I would love to have some artists' time to draw me a signed small art of my choosing to toss in my sig. I would love to know the money was split between the artist and the site. For example, as you can tell from my avatar, I have a running joke with myself about my "hunt" for the Two-Headed Holly. I don't expect to be able to "buy" one to put on my scroll. But I would have no objections with bidding or paying for someone to sketch me one, especially if that money goes to artist and site. I am not alone in this. Otherwise, non-profits would not exist. I know this game isn't a tax deduction, but does it not provide you with a great experience with no need to pay, not even a sliding scale?? And that is not something worthy of my gifting back if I want and am able to do? If I give a bit more, why can't I have some sort of small token of thanks that harms no one and gives me no advantage? Why can't I have a chance to see if this is something I might enjoy doing? If TJ runs a trial and no one responds, then he would simply discontinue if it didn't justify existing. But I want it and I'm not some lone lunatic howling into the wind. Maybe you don't like this idea, and maybe they don't want to do it, but I'd support this as well.

 

Again, I've been on the Pay for Perks game and Left it. But why Can't I have my donating to non-profits thank you experience? Do you like to Race for your Non-Profit? Give to NPR or other things for a Mug or other silly item? Donate to charities including items you know they are not using but reselling for cash (like clothes and recyling)?? How is this any different? And if the funds allow us to do better things for the site, and maybe ease the burden for the future and also benefit our overall experience, how is this a bad thing? Again, not the slippery slope type items. This is not TJ trying to sneak in a scam game. It's pretty clear he and artists and others aren't going for that model. But I want to give back. Its how computer programs used to work. You tried it and if you liked it you paid something back to the developer before Bill Gates got greedy. Now you pay a ton for it before you buy it even if its horrible. If it was good enough to found the internets and computing, I think it is good enough for DC to play with it a bit and see response.

Edited July 31, 2015 by natayah

[Fiona]

I'm not opposed to people being able to pay to change their forum name or scroll name. For the most part natayah's list of stuff is ok. I'm not ok with paying for actual game functions with real cash.

 

I'm not at all opposed to an in-game currency, but I want that mechanic kept far far away from any transactions involving real money. An in-game currency where you earn points by playing sounds fine. As soon as those points are available to purchase with real money the game becomes a pay to win game.

 

I'm not particularly in favor of being able to pay real cash for a gender change as gender is a game mechanic. It is true that a dragon's gender doesn't have a particular advantage one way or another. Of the things that could be proposed for purchase that is one of the less objectionable. It is still paying for a game mechanic though.

[HeatherMarie]

Here are some types of Paid Perks that do not influence game play:

- Special Badge or Highlight on Forum/Scroll

- Possibly Ability to Change Scroll/Forum Name without Recreating (with limits for people attempting to defraud perhaps)

- Normal Fundraiser Gifts: Special Mug, Bag, Magnet, Signed Photo/Picture

- More Inbox Space on Forum

- VoiceMail Recording from TJ or Particular Artist/Mod

- Signed Thank You Card

- Random Auctioned real or computer generated personal Items Donated by Artists or Players (funds go to site or split with donator if artist or mod or something)

- Recording of Various Staff Singing Happy Birthday or Something Else (can be recorded across computers so they don't have to get together to do this)

- Personalized Art Stuff, which kinda goes with the Above

- Timed Skpe Chat with.... whoever.... wants to volunteer

- Pictures of various volunteer people doing silly but very G or such rated antics of your choice

- And if you happen to live in an area with someone, I guess you could always get a Lunch or something with a group of people, although you might also be able to get this for free so to be less creepy maybe a Skype lunch idk...

 

This theme isn't new.... But since someone suggested to me there weren't a lot of people posting perks that had no game benefit from them, I thought I'd just make a list to show that this can be done without going down the slippery slope into the evils of pay to win gaming.

I'm pretty deep into the "NO perks" side of things, but most of these I could deal with. For me, there is a HUGE difference in "for-fun perks" and "game-inhancing perks", and I guess I'm okay with just-for-fun perks.

 

I do NOT like the idea of in-game perks. I do NOT like the idea that a special subset of users can access a game perk that I will never be able to access, *just* because they have more money then I do. DragonCave is an online game and the only 'currency' is pixels. That's how I'd like it to remain.

[Windra]

I'm completely against paid perks that limit gameplay for free players. The one thing I've always loved about Dragon Cave is that it ISN'T a "pay to win" game like so many other online games are. If that were taken away by paying for certain dragons, or an extra egg slot, or even hatching your eggs more quickly, I don't know if I would continue to play.

 

Now, if we're talking about harmless things, such as ad removal, sold merchandise or name changing, I'm fine with it. Those are things that wouldn't make it impossible to get nice dragons on your scroll. Raising funds to keep up the site and such is important. But please, please never make it pay-to-win. That would break my heart.

 

[purplehaze]

I am NOT okay with any paid perks that affect game play and give any in-game advantage to those who can afford to pay for them but leave out those who can't.

 

Fun stuff that doesn't affect anything in the game itself would be okay, I guess. I have no problem with people paying to change their names if they are bothered that much by the ones they have chosen, but I think that should even be limited to one change per player -- otherwise it might be possible for someone to use it to take advantage of other players and then hide behind a new name.

 

I would not like to see any sort of in game currency, either, whether paid for in cash or earned in some other way. I like the simplicity of this game and would like to keep that.

[Laugh]

I'm okay if it doesn't really affect gameplay. I'll just list some no/yes/maybe's

 

I would never want players to be able to pay for:

 

- Any dragon, let it be rare, common, extinct, or holiday. (This is like an absolute no)

- Instant growth of any kind.

- More overall slots

- Refusal resets (so players cannot blame TJ for purposely making it intentional to profit off)

- Changing a dragon's code

- Anything to do with breeding (IE greater chance at rare/common, lower breeding cooldown etc)

- Being able to see the actual images of dragons in biomes

- Stealing names

- Buying dragons in the wild

- Increased BSA odds (IE Earthquake, fertility, bites, etc)

- Auto-approved descriptions

- No cooldown on abandoning freshly caught eggs from biomes

- Unfreezing

- Killing no longer takes a slot

- Guaranteed revives

- Guaranteed GoNs

- Multiclutches

- Curing/preventing sickness

 

I would not mind if players could pay for:

 

- Changing adult dragon genders (as long as the dragon has never bred)

- Changing forum/scroll name

- A supporter badge (this comes whenever you support the game through any type of donation)

- More kill quota (limited up to 7)

- Skins

- Absolutely free teleports

- Encyclopedia info

 

MAYBE:

 

- Access even if game is under maintenance? It's a few minutes, but I wouldn't doubt someone would buy this if it was possible.

 

[Tehya Faye]

I'm actually mildly against changing scroll names for cash as things are right now. I think we should all get one free change of our scroll names, and then we would need to pay to have it changed again. There's another game I play that doesn't allow this (but does support paid name changes), but for the most part you can earn everything back with time and effort. Here we can't just do that; we'd be losing holidays, codes, and quite possibly CB Metals for good.

 

Forum name changes are fine, though. You can just create a new forum account without losing anything really significant.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[Starscream]

I would prefer paid perks to be left to non game play aspects.

 

Custom scroll skin

Scroll Name Change

 

There might be other ideas but i Have no thought of any.

 

I would be hesitant on in game currency unless it was readily obtainable. say something cost 1000 dc dollars and you spent 1 dollar real money to get it, through whatever system you can obtain 1000 dc dollars over a few days of play. But I would not consider implementation of such a system.

 

Nothing should be exclusive outside of the current norm.

[Sinclair]

i think possibly most everybody here is missing something; this site, like any other game site, takes a lot of work to maintain

 

and TJ is not disney/jagex/viacom/whatever big developer/owner who's already bringing in the big bucks from ad revenue and selling overpriced merchandise, etc (f.e. this is why the existence of neopets' premium accounts and the through the roof prices for neocash piss me off; they are already raking in the millions with that ad revenue, and somebody who's played for 10 years still can't access incredibly useful things like the extra pet slot that comes with premium without giving millionaire company neopets $30/month and you're almost entirely blocked off from pet customization, a huge focus of the site now, without that through the roof neocash - i actually wouldn't have much of an issue with these being paid features if neopets was run by 5 people pouring energy into the site and just trying to get by financially but^^^^^^^^huge company)

 

DC is not a public service, you're not entitled to a good time here, and i'm certain the work takes up a significant chunk of TJ's life/resources

 

from what i can gather this place is entirely independently run (let me know if i have an misinfo here i haven't been around too long) and independent artists/developers/etc of course have the full right to choose who gets to consume their hard work, what features of it and under what circumstances

 

TJ's hard work needs to be fully appreciated and his time needs to be respected just as you would your own time

 

certainly if you love this game enough you'd like to support its creators to SOME extent, or at *least* have the decency not to throw a tantrum when the concept of money is brought anywhere near you

 

of course i don't at all know TJ's feelings on making any profit from this site (maybe he has some fairytale of a deal with the ad company and is already making profit, maybe he doesn't even make enough off the ads to cover the hosting bills each month let alone begin to compensate himself for all his time spent, i have no idea) but i do know some of you really need to check yourselves and be open to the wishes of any independent creator whose work you love

 

i've seen this sort of pre-anything super-entitlement waaaaaay too many times towards e.g. artists and independent video game makers and it is just unbelievable (though of course certainly this isn't bad compared to what i've seen on more major scales)

 

again, disclaimer, obviously i don't know TJ's actual feelings or financial status, whether he sees this as charity work or an all-consuming thankless job or what, all i'm saying is be open to the idea. how would you feel if you were in TJ's position working your tail off and you know you can't even begin to throw out the idea of requesting anything from anybody in return without half your userbase essentially screaming at the top of their lungs and pummeling you

 

and before anything is said about me i'm broke as all i just have pretty heavy experience in the world of content-creation as do the groups i roll in so i know this shtuff well enough to immediately know it and get pissed when i see it

[Ambzduh]

I've nothing real to add but I would pay to change both my Forum and Scroll user names heheh, I'm otherwise against pay to win since the audience is wide and a lot of users would be left out.

[Natayah]

I had a convo with Hubby, and got a few other non-game related trinket/thank yous:

- Pens. A nice Pen that has a DC Dragon Cave Icon and maybe a cute quote or thank you.

- Nice Pen and Journal. People love Pen Journal Combos. Or even Nice Letter Sets. Especially if the "Letters" have a special Border with some of the dragons from the game with pretty borders. Having these "letters" might even be a fun freebie that is given out to players to have DC themed (borders or other small artwork) to "print" on their paper

- Various Art that can be printed on T-Shirt of choice (or other item) but only at certain donation levels or continued ongoing donation time frame.

- Title of Donator under Avatar if not a Badge for any month a donation or minimum donations is made

- A new page on the site that lists all donors who wish to be listed each month. If people are over a certain level or annual donations & renewals with different colors or fonts.

- A small handcrafted item of choice from a list. For example, some people might be willing to knit a scarf or hat of a particular size/color of the donor's choice. (Obviously, this would be something with a minimum donation level.) But again, something that people could use everyday but that isn't necessarily stamped with a giant DC tag so it can be used anywhere, but it can also be made by someone who loves to do this and instead donates the yarn and time to make the item. Donations go both ways.

-ETC

 

- I really don't like the idea of in game currency. I don't want to pay for it, although I could. I'm working for a living so I don't have HOURS on end to earn that currency. I do not like anything that causes what I consider repetitive drudging work. Because then we get temptations to "pay" other people to do it for us if we can't pay the game directly if we don't have time.

 

I would really love to see some more art options in the store from the dragons, including some of the sprites themselves on different items and more variety, but that's another thread and another thing I can add. Mostly, I just want people to see that by making fun or simple things that aren't game related, they can donate items and time if they don't have the money to donate directly and thus both parties are donating. I hope other people also post some other potential ideas and this might help with some brainstorming.

Edited July 31, 2015 by natayah