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This thread is meant to be a discussion thread on Otherkin, and as such will be open to different opinions and questions. This is not meant to be a safe space thread, but if you are need of one, the Gender Identity Safe Space Thread is open to you always.

Because this is a controversial discussion topic, you must expect there to be opposition. If you are getting upset, please take some time to care for yourself and your needs before engaging in conversation. The above space space thread is also always available to help you unwind. If you feel that someone is being out of line or hurtful, please use the report function at the top of every post instead of posting.

This thread is for asking questions, learning, sharing information, and debate. Please keep this in mind.

 

Anyone who is caught disrespecting other users for their opinions will be given a warn.

 

 

So to start things off, what is Otherkin? To quote the page on otherkin.wikia.com:

Otherkin are people who identify spiritually or psychologically as nonhuman, specifically beings who do not currently exist on earth (though it is often used as an umbrella term). Various kintypes include but are not limited to elves, demons, fae, dragons, angels, and many others. The otherkin community consists of: spiritual beliefs, such as that your soul is nonhuman or that you were meant to be reincarnated as nonhuman in this life; and psychological ones, such as that your feelings are caused by an unconscious coping mechanism or that you are mentally closer to your kintype than a human.

Source: x

 

For a more in-depth explanation, I've collected a few off-site links that cover just about everything. In general, The Otherkin FAQ tends to have great 101 resources, with a good bit covered in this post. It also covers the origin and usage of "nounself" pronouns, which have been a sore topic of late within and outside of the Otherkin community. My personal experiences match up pretty well with this blog in that those who use nounself pronouns are primarily nonbinary gender, but to keep gender things where gender things go, let's keep that to this thread.

 

Another good, but aging resource for Otherkin and Therianthropy-related stuff can be found here. A warning though, a great deal of the mailing lists, forums, chats, and social things like that are dead and gone. However, that person does host a weekly chat room with times and dates posted within the link.

 

There are also other communities very similar to Otherkin, those being listed below and using many of the same resources as above.

 

Therians

Therians are people who identify, in some intrinsic way, as an animal that exists or has existed on earth. Some believe that their soul is that of an animal while others identify as a non-human animal for brain-related reasons. They often but not always experience Ph-Shifting and M-Shifting. Ph-shifting being when you feel phantom limbs related to your theriotype (NOT physical shifting), and M-shifting being when your mentality becomes closer to your kintype (however this is not an excuse for causing harm to or harassing others in any way). Some try to induce shifts to feel closer to their kintype and understand more.

 

Other Hearted

While often confused with otherkin, the otherkin and otherhearted communities developed separately, though it is of course possible to be both otherkin and otherhearted. Being otherhearted means that you have a strong fundamental connection with a species as opposed to as. It is often described as feeling as if they are your friends or family while not identifying either spiritually or psychologicially as being the species yourself.

 

With beliefs such as this, scrutiny, contemplation, questioning, and skepticism are your best friends for figuring things out.

___________________________________________________________________

 

For myself personally, I am Dragonkin, and it wasn't easy to accept because I have a hard time being okay with being part of an overpopulated group, but nothing else I've tried to fit with worked. Recently I've started to become more comfortable with it but it still doesn't mean I have any answers for anyone that asks "well why are there so many dragons and wolves in the community compared to other animals?"

 

Just because I am one doesn't mean I've the be-all and end-all of the lot or that I have answers. Where I do have answers is more in the day-to-day functional stuff and even those should be taken with a hefty grain of salt.

Edited by Shiny Hazard Sign

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I'm all for using neopronouns in the sense of gender-neutral (like xe/xir, or other alternatives), and I think using nounself pronouns as nicknames is all cool. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of nounself pronouns being treated as regular pronouns, though, and it doesn't entirely make sense to me.

 

When we talk about animals (cats, dragons, etc) we still use the same pronouns-we refer to them by gender. So why would using the same pronouns we would use if you were physically not human be uncomfortable? I absolutely understand how using a pronoun that's not a person's gender makes them uncomfortable, and we shouldn't do that, but why does species have anything to do with it? We generally don't factor species into pronoun use at all (except that "it" is fine for an animal, but not humans).

 

Unless this is not what's being argued? Is neopronoun being used in a broad sense (anything that's not he/she/them) or specifically referring to nounself pronouns?

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I'm all for using neopronouns in the sense of gender-neutral (like xe/xir, or other alternatives), and I think using nounself pronouns as nicknames is all cool. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of nounself pronouns being treated as regular pronouns, though, and it doesn't entirely make sense to me.

 

When we talk about animals (cats, dragons, etc) we still use the same pronouns-we refer to them by gender. So why would using the same pronouns we would use if you were physically not human be uncomfortable? I absolutely understand how using a pronoun that's not a person's gender makes them uncomfortable, and we shouldn't do that, but why does species have anything to do with it? We generally don't factor species into pronoun use at all (except that "it" is fine for an animal, but not humans).

 

Unless this is not what's being argued? Is neopronoun being used in a broad sense (anything that's not he/she/them) or specifically referring to nounself pronouns?

Alright. I have cleaned out this topic in order to start fresh. I left this above post here because I think these are legitimate questions that deserve to be discussed.

 

 

 

Again: This is a discussion thread, not a safe space thread. There will be opposition and questions, but they deserve to be discussed as well. If you are getting upset, please take time to care for yourself instead of engaging in something that makes you more agitated.

 

If you have any questions, please feel free to let me know.

 

Edit: With that being said, please be respectful of everyone here. If someone is getting upset, perhaps come back to your question or concern at a later time.

Edited by Shiny Hazard Sign

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Nounself pronouns frustrate me. There have been non-binary gender individuals who couldn't get their therapist to use their proper pronouns (gender pronouns, not nounself, I think they were ze/zer) because the therapist had dealt with so many people telling him to call them "catself" or "fairyself" so he didn't recognize ANY non-binary pronouns as real. Trans/nb people have a hard enough time dealing with people not being accepting of their legitimate pronouns without others asking to be called vegetable or dog or something.

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Nounself pronouns frustrate me. There have been non-binary gender individuals who couldn't get their therapist to use their proper pronouns (gender pronouns, not nounself, I think they were ze/zer) because the therapist had dealt with so many people telling him to call them "catself" or "fairyself" so he didn't recognize ANY non-binary pronouns as real. Trans/nb people have a hard enough time dealing with people not being accepting of their legitimate pronouns without others asking to be called vegetable or dog or something.

That's not the fault of the nb people who want to use those kinds of pronouns though, it's the fault of the therapist for being transphobic and refusing to take nb people seriously :N

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That's not the fault of the nb people who want to use those kinds of pronouns though, it's the fault of the therapist for being transphobic and refusing to take nb people seriously :N

PREACH.

 

Don't get mad at nonbinary people for cis people being horrible, thanks. :/

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That's not the fault of the nb people who want to use those kinds of pronouns though, it's the fault of the therapist for being transphobic and refusing to take nb people seriously :N

If when I had first discovered non-binary pronouns, they had been ones like catself and tomatoself I would have been very confused. I would have had a harder time accepting legitimate ones like they/them or xe/xer. The therapist was in the wrong for refusing to use nb pronouns, but I am still able to understand, slightly, because calling someone "wolf" makes no sense. What's the point of pronouns if they're basically just regular nouns? We might as well just drop pronouns all together and go by our names.

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Because a lot of nonbinary people are only comfortable with the pronouns they've chosen. If you're disabled and struggle with things like this, yeah, use just their names. But if you're refusing to use their pronouns (regardless of how "nonsensical" they are to you) you should probably step back and examine why. We don't exist in a vaccuum, and so there are opinions and ideas that are influenced by our very transphobic environment.

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I've never come across this subject before, but I'm sticking to using him, her, or they. Maybe xe/xir if it comes up I guess? It's what I use to refer to everything, with the exception of inanimate objects; whether human, dog, bird, snake, what have you.

 

I also disagree with the statement that not using those pronouns is transphobic. I am perfectly fine with whatever you want to be, I couldn't care less, but him, her, and they cover all things and are the convention of the language. If you ask me to call or refer to you in terms of gender neutral (so them, they, xir/xe) I'd be fine doing that, but anything else more specific doesn't hold the function of a pronoun imo.

Edited by High Lord November

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I refuse to use them because they are harmful to trans and nb people. That is my main reason.

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If a trans person tells you that your opinions might be transphobic, you should probably listen. We have a much better idea of what transphobia is than you honestly, just through our lived experience.

 

But hey, I'm glad you value grammar more than the personal decisions and identities of people around you. :/

 

@Sparkle: There are trans otherkin who use nounself pronouns. I am a trans person. I am a nonbinary person. I am telling you that they are not harmful, there is nothing harmful about self-expression. You can take your thinly veiled anti-otherkin sentiments and throw them out the window.

Edited by oddinomaly

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Why do you think you have a better idea of transphobia than me?

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But hey, I'm glad you value grammar more than the personal decisions and identities of people around you. :/

Please, let's not go back to this circular argument.

 

I myself use they as a non-binary pronoun as a default. Even though I don't believe in nounself pronouns I have no problem calling my friends nounself pronouns if they asked without blowing up in my face about how ignorant I am to their feelings.

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Look, you're wrong. Refusing to use someone's pronouns for any reason other than disability is inherently transphobic. That's just how it is. Hate to burst your bubble.

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If a trans person tells you that your opinions might be transphobic, you should probably listen. We have a much better idea of what transphobia is than you honestly, just through our lived experience.

 

But hey, I'm glad you value grammar more than the personal decisions and identities of people around you. :/

 

@Sparkle: There are trans otherkin who use nounself pronouns. I am a trans person. I am a nonbinary person. I am telling you that they are not harmful, there is nothing harmful about self-expression. You can take your thinly veiled anti-otherkin sentiments and throw them out the window.

Sure, you can define transphobia as anyone not doing what you want to accommodate for you, but the definition is

 

Transphobia (or much less commonly transprejudice) is a range of antagonistic attitudes and feelings against transsexuality and transsexual or transgender people, based on the expression of their internal gender identity (see Phobia – Terms for prejudice).

 

I am not displaying any sort of antagonistic feelings or feelings of hate towards you.I'm totally cool with your existence and support you doing whatever you want with yourself. But it doesn't mean I have to change the function and definition of common words just for you, and not doing that doesn't mean I'm a big mean cruel monster who has no feelings for anyone else other than myself. And if that's your definition of transphobia, then I'm going to have to disagree.

 

It isn't a 'grammar rule'. It's the function I use it for. Anything that's not general doesn't hold the use a pronoun does for me, hence I'd never use it for that use.

 

 

Also, this is a discussion thread. Trying to shut down other people by saying "Nope, you're wrong" isn't in the spirit of the thread.

Edited by High Lord November

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I am not going to use pronouns that harm and degrade the trans community. I am non-binary and yes, they are harmful, whether you want to think they are or not.

Edited by sparkle10184

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Except there are TRANS PEOPLE who are also otherkin using these pronouns, trans people cannot hurt their own movement if they're genuine about their identity. Your argument is based pretty much entirely in anti-otherkin sentiment, whether you know it or not.

 

Also, this may be shocking to you, I am also non-binary.

Edited by oddinomaly

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I'm all for using neopronouns in the sense of gender-neutral (like xe/xir, or other alternatives), and I think using nounself pronouns as nicknames is all cool. I'm not really comfortable with the idea of nounself pronouns being treated as regular pronouns, though, and it doesn't entirely make sense to me.

 

When we talk about animals (cats, dragons, etc) we still use the same pronouns-we refer to them by gender. So why would using the same pronouns we would use if you were physically not human be uncomfortable? I absolutely understand how using a pronoun that's not a person's gender makes them uncomfortable, and we shouldn't do that, but why does species have anything to do with it? We generally don't factor species into pronoun use at all (except that "it" is fine for an animal, but not humans).

 

Unless this is not what's being argued? Is neopronoun being used in a broad sense (anything that's not he/she/them) or specifically referring to nounself pronouns?

I think what we've been discussing is the nounself subset of pronouns.

 

I'm with you in the not understanding the function of nounself terms. Pronouns are supposed to be broad replacement nouns for a specific noun, so that you're not repeating that noun over and over. By inserting a regular noun in the place of a pronoun, it kinda seems to defeat the purpose of the pronoun.

And with our pronouns being coded by gender, inserting a species in place of gender is just really confusing to me. Like you said, animals are still referred to with gendered pronouns. By putting a species in a gender-coded space, it makes it look like a species is being claimed as a gender?

 

I dunno. It's confusing to me, and I've had a hard time trying to find any unbiased discussion on the topic.

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Just out of curiosity - what do you mean by trans otherkin? Do you mean you transgender and otherkin or something else? I am kind of confused as otherkin is not the same being transgender.

 

I am FTM transgender myself - and I don't see sparkle's refusal to use pronouns like catself ect. as transphobic because cat -wolf ect are not genders.

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There are people who are trans and otherkin. I know otherkin isn't the same as gender identity, I'm otherkin myself. :P

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By putting a species in a gender-coded space, it makes it look like a species is being claimed as a gender?

This. This is what I'm trying to understand. Is your species your gender? From what you say, they are separate but it's all so confusing as some otherkin use their species as gender pronouns.

 

Except there are TRANS PEOPLE who are also otherkin using these pronouns, trans people cannot hurt their own movement if they're genuine about their identity.

That's like saying "This is how I do things so I can't be in the wrong." There are probably many examples of movements out there that have crashed because of internal strife.

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Some otherkin use species in place of gender, for whatever reason. I don't see how it's still an issue.

 

Okay, here's the thing though: how does it hurt the community? How does someone's personal identity affect the trans community in any way? It costs $0.00 to use someone's pronouns, regardless of how you feel about them.

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I don't care if you want to identify as a cat or a dog or whatever. Go right ahead. But nounself pronouns are not okay. The nb community is already often not taken seriously and people asking to be called wolfself just makes it worse. Trans people struggle every single day to make people understand that having a penis doesn't automatically make someone a boy. We are forced through "correctional therapy," bullying, violence, bigotry, and misgendering. Pronouns are not a toy or a joke. I am not going to call you a noun that isn't a pronoun (and makes zero sense as one; go ahead tell me I'm putting grammar ahead of people's feelings) at the expense of trans people who are already struggling to just live their frickin life without being harassed and insulted and misgendered.

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