Posted January 23, 2015 If any kind of "store" or 'store' or store is added, I have hesitantly supported the ideas on it because there are users out there who've been playing for years and haven't caught their own cb shiny. I think strict limits are needed, but I wanted this as something to help users with bad internet, disabilities, etc., NOT just as a way to get prizes distributed to users (even though I seriously need a way to get HMs around now). =U If it's just prizes, I don't support. That's really a good point! I know I almost never see the 'more desirable' dragons anymore, and I have a newer computer now, plus was lucky enough to have started at a time when even slower people with genuine antique computers putting in time and effort could catch the odd metallic, as well as being gifted various dragons (now practically impossible for me to even ever see) by a fast friend with a killer work computer who now also rarely even sees/catches them... Even with a relatively new computer, I've only ever seen two non-Volcano Pyralspites and I think only one Gold and no Silvers since I came back on at Halloween, and no Blusang lately, either - the only way a lot of people will get these, at current rates, would be via something like this... Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 If any kind of "store" or 'store' or store is added, I have hesitantly supported the ideas on it because there are users out there who've been playing for years and haven't caught their own cb shiny. I think strict limits are needed, but I wanted this as something to help users with bad internet, disabilities, etc., NOT just as a way to get prizes distributed to users (even though I seriously need a way to get HMs around now). =U If it's just prizes, I don't support. Indeed, I dont see the problem with a store to get any in-cave dragon. And I dont see how this will hurt ratios since you need to get points, and to get the needed points for a common dragon (one you can get in any biome fairly easily, like mints) you basically have to get points during 2 or 3 days (from what Ive read, this is for hybrids considered commons, so maybe for a real common like mints, it can be less, but I dont see why it should), therefore is logical that an uncommon will take you from a week to a few months depending on the "uncommoness" and time you can spend obtaining points, and the rares from 2 months to, very easily, a year. Since no everyone can connect everyday, the obtaining of eggs through this method is just absurdly slow and non-effective. Although I see a problem with distributing "store-exclusives", or only CB holidays/hybrids/prizes/alts. The first ones should not exist, and the last ones can be, but not being the only things you can buy and, obviously, have prices according to their rareness. I support if its a store to get CB of all dragons. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 I support if its a store to get CB of all dragons. I support it only if it ISN'T. Otherwise the ratios will be royally screwed in no time flat and cave hunters looking for rares will never be able to get them - it would mean many players would have to dramatically change their play styles for no good reason. Those of us who have the ones you have trouble with have worked for them, and you can too - that's what the game has all been about since day one. And don't forget - there is no official rarity index - and TJ has made it very clear that there never will be (yes I know he has been known to change his mind, but he said just today that he doesn't have to tell us about behind the scenes mechanics, and he won't - and I am SURE the ratios are a part of that. It doesn't take playing all day and every day to lock your scroll regularly - and then you can easily take a few days out. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 I support it only if it ISN'T. Otherwise the ratios will be royally screwed in no time flat and cave hunters looking for rares will never be able to get them - it would mean many players would have to dramatically change their play styles for no good reason. Those of us who have the ones you have trouble with have worked for them, and you can too - that's what the game has all been about since day one. And don't forget - there is no official rarity index - and TJ has made it very clear that there never will be (yes I know he has been known to change his mind, but he said just today that he doesn't have to tell us about behind the scenes mechanics, and he won't - and I am SURE the ratios are a part of that. It doesn't take playing all day and every day to lock your scroll regularly - and then you can easily take a few days out. Fuzz, you make this sound like the store would allow you to just use your debit card and buy whatever catches your eye. However, this isn't the way it's supposed to be. You'd have to work hard in order to afford a dragon that's inofficially declared rare. You'd also have to forego other things like CB hybrids, old holidays or - should they be added - real prize dragons. Taking all that into account, I conclude that there aren't that many people who'd buy golds/silvers/coppers at all, and definitely not in huge quantities. And the thing about "we have worked for it - you can too" is that for many of us, hoping to catch a rare is about as likely as winning the raffle. Also don't forget those of us who do have lots of rare stuff have been around for a while and have likely seen the latest flood of the breeds in question. (Remember the latest metal flood? Not that it did me any good, but at least I got to see some metals back then. ) Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 things like CB hybrids, old holidays or - should they be added - real prize dragons Prize dragons are way more likely to happen than CB hybrids. I'd rather not have CBs of breeds that were never intended to be CB becoming anything close to the "norm." Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 I'm neutral on allowing in-cave dragons to be purchased in the store.. but I'm starting to lean toward YES. I understand those that see it as a big no-no, because rares are supposed to be rare and all that jazz. BUT..... the cave is also getting crowded. First TJ added the biomes, to spread the breeds out. Then he started doing the monthly releases, and the number of in-cave dragons started growing exponentially. Now there are probably double the amount of dragons in-cave than there were just 2 years ago. To me, that means that the rares are getting harder to find. So believe it or not, not only are the rares rare.. they are getting more rare with every new breed added to the cave. Folk are already asking for more biomes and I agree that we definitely need more to spread the breeds out again. But the 'store' might be a good idea too, in addition to adding more biomes. And I think the idea will keep getting better with every new non-rare breed added to the cave. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 Prize dragons are way more likely to happen than CB hybrids. I'd rather not have CBs of breeds that were never intended to be CB becoming anything close to the "norm." So that's why you've phased them out of the raffle, too? Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 So that's why you've phased them out of the raffle, too? Good question. I would like to know too I had thought it was because if this was going to get out that hybrids were going to be included which I preferred over having CB Prizes in the store if it ever came out. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Fuzz, you make this sound like the store would allow you to just use your debit card and buy whatever catches your eye. However, this isn't the way it's supposed to be. You'd have to work hard in order to afford a dragon that's inofficially declared rare. You'd also have to forego other things like CB hybrids, old holidays or - should they be added - real prize dragons. Taking all that into account, I conclude that there aren't that many people who'd buy golds/silvers/coppers at all, and definitely not in huge quantities. And the thing about "we have worked for it - you can too" is that for many of us, hoping to catch a rare is about as likely as winning the raffle. Also don't forget those of us who do have lots of rare stuff have been around for a while and have likely seen the latest flood of the breeds in question. (Remember the latest metal flood? Not that it did me any good, but at least I got to see some metals back then. ) Oh I know about the "worked for it" thing - but a new player who has more than once been trying to find ways to make it easier... It's a shame, is all. TJ - what do you think about dragons other than prizes being in there, if you don't want HM style ones ? or CB past holidays, IN SEASON ? And if we DID go that route - how on earth would "prices" be determined ? @ Saynna - yes, me too Edited January 23, 2015 by fuzzbucket Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 So that's why you've phased them out of the raffle, too? That was unrelated. I figured 600 winners is plenty without also adding a few hundred HM's. It also simplifies the amount of work that needs to be done to distribute prizes. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 I agree that we definitely need more to spread the breeds out again. This is interesting, given even the most full biome has fewer breeds in it than the cave did when biomes were introduced. Though this is mildly off-topic. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) This is interesting, given even the most full biome has fewer breeds in it than the cave did when biomes were introduced. The problem isn't the number of breeds, its that a few breeds spend all the time rotating between the three slots. Its the same problem with breeding: a couple of super commons are locking out the other breed. I think that another mechanism, either kick a breed to the AP if its stuck around for 5+ minutes or maybe cut the abandon time for CBs from 5 hrs to 1 hr, is needed. Users love picking up CBs from the AP... They don't much like picking up extra blockers from the Biomes, and have them take up a slot for 5 hrs, just so they can abandon them again. ETA: I'm going to go dig up the thread about it I made in the past.... Cheers! C4. Edited January 23, 2015 by cyradis4 Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 TJ - what do you think about dragons other than prizes being in there, if you don't want HM style ones ? or CB past holidays, IN SEASON ? And if we DID go that route - how on earth would "prices" be determined ? Prices could go a few ways: * Manually set (e.g. by me). That requires a lot of by-hand work, but allows for fine-tuning. * Set based on the breed's target ("ideal") rarity. This means that over-/under- population is ignored in prices. * Set based on current actual rarity. Overpopulated breeds would be made more expensive, and underpopulated The whole thing with setting a price is that it defines the value of a given thing. Right now, the value is whatever people are willing to barter for, but it seems that trading values will swing wildly to vaguely match what the prices are, which is the site dictating the value of an egg, rather than you deciding for your self. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 Prices could go a few ways: * Manually set (e.g. by me). That requires a lot of by-hand work, but allows for fine-tuning. * Set based on the breed's target ("ideal") rarity. This means that over-/under- population is ignored in prices. * Set based on current actual rarity. Overpopulated breeds would be made more expensive, and underpopulated The whole thing with setting a price is that it defines the value of a given thing. Right now, the value is whatever people are willing to barter for, but it seems that trading values will swing wildly to vaguely match what the prices are, which is the site dictating the value of an egg, rather than you deciding for your self. Hmmm... I like the over / under populated price, with a minimum base price. If the base price is set high enough (ie, takes a few days or a week min to get even the most common eggs), then most people will get the eggs from the biomes... Unless they can't find them in the biomes. Also, knowing which breeds need more in circulation will help many of the blocker threads and contests anyway, so I like that on general principal. Cheers! C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 Prices could go a few ways: * Manually set (e.g. by me). That requires a lot of by-hand work, but allows for fine-tuning. * Set based on the breed's target ("ideal") rarity. This means that over-/under- population is ignored in prices. * Set based on current actual rarity. Overpopulated breeds would be made more expensive, and underpopulated The whole thing with setting a price is that it defines the value of a given thing. Right now, the value is whatever people are willing to barter for, but it seems that trading values will swing wildly to vaguely match what the prices are, which is the site dictating the value of an egg, rather than you deciding for your self. That's rather what worries me. But I DO think you have done the right thing with the 600 prizes. Kudos to you for that. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 What if we didn't see the prices then? Say, we have a number of points, X points, that we would like to spend on a certain dragon. We head to the shop and offer that to the shop owner. That owner then tells us if it's enough or not. If not, we can try again tomorrow, or in Y days. The prices would vary a little between purchases and players, like stat requirements for hatching, so that we could share experiences in the forum, but wouldn't really get exact numbers. (see, that's the kind of ideas I get with lack of sleep) Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 Fuzz, you make this sound like the store would allow you to just use your debit card and buy whatever catches your eye. However, this isn't the way it's supposed to be. You'd have to work hard in order to afford a dragon that's inofficially declared rare. You'd also have to forego other things like CB hybrids, old holidays or - should they be added - real prize dragons. Taking all that into account, I conclude that there aren't that many people who'd buy golds/silvers/coppers at all, and definitely not in huge quantities. And the thing about "we have worked for it - you can too" is that for many of us, hoping to catch a rare is about as likely as winning the raffle. Also don't forget those of us who do have lots of rare stuff have been around for a while and have likely seen the latest flood of the breeds in question. (Remember the latest metal flood? Not that it did me any good, but at least I got to see some metals back then. ) The thought occures to me too, that I would ASSUME that prices for rares.. CB gold, silver an d such... if they were to be included, would be HIGH. It isn't like a person could just go on and buy 50 cb golds every week, I wouldn't think. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 What if we didn't see the prices then? Say, we have a number of points, X points, that we would like to spend on a certain dragon. We head to the shop and offer that to the shop owner. That owner then tells us if it's enough or not. If not, we can try again tomorrow, or in Y days. The prices would vary a little between purchases and players, like stat requirements for hatching, so that we could share experiences in the forum, but wouldn't really get exact numbers. (see, that's the kind of ideas I get with lack of sleep) One thing I just thought of (and thus haven't thought through) is some sort of percentile system. That is: Rather than having prices, you put in an offer for an egg. Only the top 20% of offers (that is, the most expensive offers) get the egg; everyone else tries again later (perhaps with only 80% refunded, to stop people from continuously offering when they don't know). The site can show the current average price (or the winning price from the previous day). Thus, the price is still set by whatever people are willing to pay, and there's also incentive to try to pick a good price, rather than just spamming a low one and hoping no one else "bids" high. But that's essentially some form of an auction. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 One thing I just thought of (and thus haven't thought through) is some sort of percentile system. That is: Rather than having prices, you put in an offer for an egg. Only the top 20% of offers (that is, the most expensive offers) get the egg; everyone else tries again later (perhaps with only 80% refunded, to stop people from continuously offering when they don't know). The site can show the current average price (or the winning price from the previous day). Thus, the price is still set by whatever people are willing to pay, and there's also incentive to try to pick a good price, rather than just spamming a low one and hoping no one else "bids" high. But that's essentially some form of an auction. I'm really not in favor of anything that requires competition. The goal after all is to allow anyone the shot at these with enough time. Maybe instead of having a "who's highest", you could have something where the amount needed for a dragon on any given day varies with 3 things: Ideal rarity, actual rarity, and a random value. The random value could change every day, or every time you check. And the three combined could swing the "price" by 50%, say. So, you'd have: Mana Cost = (Ideal Rarity + Actual Rarity) * random value Actual rarity would be + or -, so that the dragons that are super populous would be cheap and those that are super over-populated will be expensive. By having a random factor in there that changes, no one can really *know* what the rarity is. Besides, we already have a good feeling for what's currently actually rare vs super common. Anyone who breeds already *knows* that Crimson, Falconis, and almost every other new breed is super common, that Blusangs and Trios are uncommon, and that Vines and Sunsongs aren't commons per se but they aren't uncommon, either. So, so long as the random factor is large enough to swing the price so that most of the commoner breeds tend to alternate on which is more costly, I'd say this won't have any real effect. Because we already know general relative rarity. Cheers! C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 23, 2015 One thing I just thought of (and thus haven't thought through) is some sort of percentile system. That is: Rather than having prices, you put in an offer for an egg. Only the top 20% of offers (that is, the most expensive offers) get the egg; everyone else tries again later (perhaps with only 80% refunded, to stop people from continuously offering when they don't know). The site can show the current average price (or the winning price from the previous day). Thus, the price is still set by whatever people are willing to pay, and there's also incentive to try to pick a good price, rather than just spamming a low one and hoping no one else "bids" high. But that's essentially some form of an auction. So, it'd be like eBay with an "average going price" for the egg being advertised? Would there be a set number of eggs that would be auctioned off/ a cap on the amount of eggs that users could win bids on? I seem to recall you mentioning a scroll cap for things like prizes, but would people be able to bid on multiple dragons in an effort to win them or would they only be able to bid on one dragon per day? I know you said that you haven't thought this through, but these are just things that I'm curious about and you can get back to them (or not) whenever. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 24, 2015 Auction competition really isn't that tough. Yes the people who can grind more or obtain more points will eventually have first dibs but if there are cool downs between winning an egg in a bidding and Limits as to how many of that won egg you can have, everyone technically will have a chance. I would say either TJ's idea or a very high set price that requires quite some time to obtain. Not time as in you have to grind for it, but time where it wont be a spit easy task to get all the points needed to buy this. The Rares or exclusives you want to be able to get should be obtainable, but not super easy to get. Either or works. Personally I don't quite like the thought of store, but that's just me and a small hand few of others. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 24, 2015 I'm really not in favor of anything that requires competition. The goal after all is to allow anyone the shot at these with enough time. Maybe instead of having a "who's highest", you could have something where the amount needed for a dragon on any given day varies with 3 things: Ideal rarity, actual rarity, and a random value. The random value could change every day, or every time you check. And the three combined could swing the "price" by 50%, say. So, you'd have: Mana Cost = (Ideal Rarity + Actual Rarity) * random value Actual rarity would be + or -, so that the dragons that are super populous would be cheap and those that are super over-populated will be expensive. By having a random factor in there that changes, no one can really *know* what the rarity is. Besides, we already have a good feeling for what's currently actually rare vs super common. Anyone who breeds already *knows* that Crimson, Falconis, and almost every other new breed is super common, that Blusangs and Trios are uncommon, and that Vines and Sunsongs aren't commons per se but they aren't uncommon, either. So, so long as the random factor is large enough to swing the price so that most of the commoner breeds tend to alternate on which is more costly, I'd say this won't have any real effect. Because we already know general relative rarity. Cheers! C4. Random prices is something I did with Leetle Adoptables. It was kind of annoying not knowing if you should wait for the price to go down or if you aren't going to see a better price. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 24, 2015 I'm not an active trader mostly because the only thing anyone asks for anymore are low-gen Tinsels and Shimmers.. which I don't have and can't seem to get, nor am I able to grab tons of cb golds or silvers. 5 or 6 years ago when my computer was new, I was able to grab rares and uncommons and have something to trade, but now my computer is an antique and I'm SOL when it comes to trading these days. So personally, I not only WANT a store, I NEED a store.. just to be able to 'trade' on a level playing field. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 24, 2015 Random prices is something I did with Leetle Adoptables. It was kind of annoying not knowing if you should wait for the price to go down or if you aren't going to see a better price. Seeing as this is Dragon Cave, I think encouraging people to get commoner dragons from the Cave (rather than this "store") would be A Good Thing. And having a varying cost could do just that. Why be annoyed by it, when you can get it free with the same effort from the Cave? And the stuff that is really rare and that isn't in the Cave could have a much smaller random factor. Cheers! C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted January 24, 2015 One thing I just thought of (and thus haven't thought through) is some sort of percentile system. That is: Rather than having prices, you put in an offer for an egg. Only the top 20% of offers (that is, the most expensive offers) get the egg; everyone else tries again later (perhaps with only 80% refunded, to stop people from continuously offering when they don't know). The site can show the current average price (or the winning price from the previous day). Thus, the price is still set by whatever people are willing to pay, and there's also incentive to try to pick a good price, rather than just spamming a low one and hoping no one else "bids" high. But that's essentially some form of an auction. I'm not completely sure how I feel about this idea, although it is interesting and would help keep a tight regulation on how many gifts go out through this avenue. Share this post Link to post
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