Unfreezing

[CNR4806]

Well, this game could be more creative and rich - but apparently is not going in this direction. I was surprised when I discovered that some suggestions are largely approved by the players but are waiting for years to be implemented.

Of course DC is not my primary game, it's too limited and simple to be. It would need a lot of development to become more interesting. But maybe in 10 or 20 years will become more interesting?

My game of love is The Sims, I've been playing for almost 15 years. <3

I do agree that changes to the game, especially those that seem to enjoy a high rate of approval, are mind-bogglingly slow and sometimes frustratingly so.

 

What I was talking about in the above post is about the pace of the game itself though.

[SolarCat]

Well, this game could be more creative and rich - but apparently is not going in this direction. I was surprised when I discovered that some suggestions are largely approved by the players but are waiting for years to be implemented.

Of course DC is not my primary game, it's too limited and simple to be. It would need a lot of development to become more interesting. But maybe in 10 or 20 years will become more interesting?

My game of love is The Sims, I've been playing for almost 15 years. <3

I don't think DragCave is anyone's "primary game". (EDIT: I stand corrected! That's awesome, Fuzzbucket. <3 And I guess by "primary game" I meant "the one that takes more time per week". If counting "primary game" as the one played the longest, DragCave is mine, too, hands down. But this part of the debate isn't really what the thread is about.)

 

The difference is that I periodically grow tired of my primary games, or grow out of my primary games, but DragCave is always still here. It's my game, the one I always come back to.

THAT is what DC is about, to me. It's a game I love because it DOESN'T require a large percentage of my time, it's a steady constant with a lot of options that I don't have to micromanage (unless I want to micromanage ).

 

I'd be okay if the one year time was cut down to something like six months, still with the automatically-grow-up feature. Either way, I do feel there should be a time limit. For most people who aren't looking to abuse the system, it takes that long just to figure out that maybe freezing that hatchling wasn't such a good idea! Of the rest, a large percentage would be accidental freezes of the wrong hatchling.

 

Maybe a compromise for people who want instant gratification? Sort of like using the "kill" option on an egg, with the chance of failure and loss of the hatchling or a dead egg.

If you wait a year (or however the limit is set), the action has a 100% chance of success. If you try it earlier you have an increasing (depending upon HOW early) chance of failure, resulting in the death of the hatchling (or perhaps sending the adult to the wilderness or the hatchling remaining permanently frozen or some other such deterrent). That way you CAN try early, but that doesn't mean it will work.

 

I don't really care either way on that one, I like the proposal as-is. But it's a thought I had, in case anyone is interested.

Edited July 18, 2014 by SolarCat

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't think DragCave is anyone's "primary game".

 

The difference is that I periodically grow tired of my primary games, or grow out of my primary games, but DragCave is always still here. It's my game, the one I always come back to.

THAT is what DC is about, to me. It's a game I love because it DOESN'T require a large percentage of my time, it's a steady constant with a lot of options that I don't have to micromanage (unless I want to micromanage ).

 

I'd be okay if the one year time was cut down to something like six months, still with the automatically-grow-up feature. Either way, I do feel there should be a time limit. For most people who aren't looking to abuse the system, it takes that long just to figure out that maybe freezing that hatchling wasn't such a good idea! Of the rest, a large percentage would be accidental freezes of the wrong hatchling.

 

Maybe a compromise for people who want instant gratification? Sort of like using the "kill" option on an egg, with the chance of failure and loss of the hatchling or a dead egg.

If you wait a year (or however the limit is set), the action has a 100% chance of success. If you try it earlier you have an increasing (depending upon HOW early) chance of failure, resulting in the death of the hatchling (or perhaps sending the adult to the wilderness or the hatchling remaining permanently frozen or some other such deterrent). That way you CAN try early, but that doesn't mean it will work.

 

I don't really care either way on that one, I like the proposal as-is. But it's a thought I had, in case anyone is interested.

*raises hand*

 

It is my ONLY game (unless you count things like bubbleshooter and 2048.)

 

And the reasons you give for coming back here are exactly the reasons that it IS my primary (and only) game.I am SICK of the rat-race speed of life, and the "new generation" that want to make it even faster and less appreciative - and I love the peace that is DC.

 

I love the idea of those hi-speed-attitude people having the option to take the risk of a kill, though. I could SO live with that

[annageckos]

I don't think DragCave is anyone's "primary game".

 

What do you count as a 'primary game'? I would say DC is my primary game. It's the only game of this type that I am currently playing. I've joined a lot of different ones, but DC is the only one I've stuck with. I check it daily, in fact my scroll is my homepage. I even check my scroll when I'm egglocked or know nothing will grow up for days. The only other game I play regularly is Skyrim on my PS3.

 

I do support unfreezing. I think a wait time is good and having the dragons grow up immediately upon unfreezing.

[olympe]

We need to have the time to stand and stare, smell the roses, and the rest.

It's called leisure. I, too, appreciate the leisurely pace here. I tend to occasionally play certain other games, but it's always more of a phase that may take a couple of weeks or months. DC is what I've been playing for years straight, and without stopping. That's the big difference between other online games, other computer games and, well, Dragon Cave. With Dragon Cave, we have good reason to keep playing - always new goals to reach, but things that aren't done in a jiffy. It's not a game where you have to be online 24 hours a day (plus most of the night ), either. Which is something I really appreciate - especially after my experience with one of those 24/7-online games.

 

Indeed,

What is life, if full of care,

We have no time to stand and stare?

[danicast]

I don't think DragCave is anyone's "primary game". (EDIT: I stand corrected! That's awesome, Fuzzbucket. <3 And I guess by "primary game" I meant "the one that takes more time per week". If counting "primary game" as the one played the longest, DragCave is mine, too, hands down. But this part of the debate isn't really what the thread is about.)

 

The difference is that I periodically grow tired of my primary games, or grow out of my primary games, but DragCave is always still here. It's my game, the one I always come back to.

THAT is what DC is about, to me. It's a game I love because it DOESN'T require a large percentage of my time, it's a steady constant with a lot of options that I don't have to micromanage (unless I want to micromanage ).

 

I'd be okay if the one year time was cut down to something like six months, still with the automatically-grow-up feature. Either way, I do feel there should be a time limit. For most people who aren't looking to abuse the system, it takes that long just to figure out that maybe freezing that hatchling wasn't such a good idea! Of the rest, a large percentage would be accidental freezes of the wrong hatchling.

 

Maybe a compromise for people who want instant gratification? Sort of like using the "kill" option on an egg, with the chance of failure and loss of the hatchling or a dead egg.

If you wait a year (or however the limit is set), the action has a 100% chance of success. If you try it earlier you have an increasing (depending upon HOW early) chance of failure, resulting in the death of the hatchling (or perhaps sending the adult to the wilderness or the hatchling remaining permanently frozen or some other such deterrent). That way you CAN try early, but that doesn't mean it will work.

 

I don't really care either way on that one, I like the proposal as-is. But it's a thought I had, in case anyone is interested.

Nope. I disagree with failure rate. Freeze doesn't have a failure rate so why unfreeze should have? Makes no sense. Again, it's just a punitive measure to punish those who decide to use the unfreeze action. If that is the case then the hatchies that you are trying to freeze should have a failure rate too, and should die too.

[Fuzzbucket]

The failure rate was suggested only for those who aren't prepared to wait for the length of time most players in this thread seem to think is fair, and CHOOSE to take the risk of death rather than wait. It's only (potentially) punitive for those with no patience !

 

You don't seem prepared to accept anything other than instant unfreeze with - I think ? - the 16 per two weeks limit that we have for freezing. I really don't understand why.

[olympe]

Generally, I disagree with punishing people with a failure rate for unfreezing. However, I feel that a good amount of time should pass between performing the Freezing action on a hatchling and being able to unfreeze them again. Personally, I feel that 1 year is a perfect time for this.

 

@danicast: Unfreeze isn't meant so people can use more loopholes for avoiding scroll limits, it's meant to let people undo a decision made under different circumstances regarding freezing. It'll most likely be used for frozen CB holiday hatchlings, old Pinks and Frills, some other rare dragons or special lineage dragons, maybe even the occasional misclick due to carelessness. Because of that, a wait time of 1 year isn't a bad idea, and the only people who might have issues with that are those who either change their mind constantly, don't take care with permanent actions (Freeze!) or who want to boost their scroll by circumventing the growing things limit.

[CNR4806]

Nope. I disagree with failure rate. Freeze doesn't have a failure rate so why unfreeze should have? Makes no sense. Again, it's just a punitive measure to punish those who decide to use the unfreeze action. If that is the case then the hatchies that you are trying to freeze should have a failure rate too, and should die too.

The suggested failure rate is a compromise between a mandotory one year wait and limitless unfreezing.

 

It is suggested under the premise that you are supposed to wait one full year until you unfreeze something, at which point the action would be 100% successful, but you can try doing it early by taking the risk of killing the thing/failing/<insert bad consequence>.

[danicast]

Generally, I disagree with punishing people with a failure rate for unfreezing. However, I feel that a good amount of time should pass between performing the Freezing action on a hatchling and being able to unfreeze them again. Personally, I feel that 1 year is a perfect time for this.

 

@danicast: Unfreeze isn't meant so people can use more loopholes for avoiding scroll limits, it's meant to let people undo a decision made under different circumstances regarding freezing. It'll most likely be used for frozen CB holiday hatchlings, old Pinks and Frills, some other rare dragons or special lineage dragons, maybe even the occasional misclick due to carelessness. Because of that, a wait time of 1 year isn't a bad idea, and the only people who might have issues with that are those who either change their mind constantly, don't take care with permanent actions (Freeze!) or who want to boost their scroll by circumventing the growing things limit.

Nope, one year is abusive. It ruins the whole concept of unfreezing as a new useful game tool. That's why we are here discussing, right? To IMPROVE the game and not to make the game more annoying.

I made several suggestions about the time. What about start to discuss how much time a hatchie needs to spend frozen before the player will be able to unfreeze it? I suggested 30 days, 60 days and even 90 days and nobody said anything. I really like the 30 days period, I think is more than enough to prevent abuses and enough to make those who already waited happy.

 

Also where are the other forum members? There are like 6 people discussing this. This kind of suggestion should be discussed by more people.

Edited July 18, 2014 by danicast

[annageckos]

While one year seems like a long time (and sure, it is) I can agree with it. A dragon must be frozen on one year before being unfrozen. IMO that will cut back on people using it to try and get around scroll limits. Six months would be the shortest amount of time, anything less then that and people will freeze to open spots and unfreeze later. But in the end it is up to TJ and what he feels is appropriate.

[kecemis]

*raises hand*

 

It is my ONLY game (unless you count things like bubbleshooter and 2048.)

 

And the reasons you give for coming back here are exactly the reasons that it IS my primary (and only) game.I am SICK of the rat-race speed of life, and the "new generation" that want to make it even faster and less appreciative - and I love the peace that is DC.

 

I love the idea of those hi-speed-attitude people having the option to take the risk of a kill, though. I could SO live with that

DC is my only game too. I'm 22, I don't have the patience for much else anymore (except maybe the neopets stock market, which I revisit maybe once a year to see what my million np investment is at now? I don't think that counts.)

 

99% of my time is shared equally between Etsy and DC.

 

I also would agree that there should be a failure rate, and that failure rate should mean death./i] I can easily see people (especially those who trade) taking advantage of it otherwise, freezing Caveborn Golds and Silvers and hoarding them until they have something insane like four gendered golden hatchlings for trade. It would make people trading for the golds more greedy, and make trading golds (and anything really) easier- if unfreezings were limitless, what would stop people from keeping and saving gendered, caveborn hatchlings, hoarding them, until someone wanted to trade for one? Then they could just pick out one they hatched oh, say, two years ago, and trade it off when they have a spare slot.

 

A lot of trading is pushed by the limited amount of time you have to do so- what would be the point of even trading eggs when you could ask for gendered hatchlings? So I think there should be that risk, if we are going to gain something that could quickly change the way people do trading.

[edwardelricfreak]

Nope, one year is abusive. It ruins the whole concept of unfreezing as a new useful game tool. That's why we are here discussing, right? To IMPROVE the game and not to make the game more annoying.

I made several suggestions about the time. What about start to discuss how much time a hatchie needs to spend frozen before the player will be able to unfreeze it? I suggested 30 days, 60 days and even 90 days and nobody said anything. I really like the 30 days period, I think is more than enough to prevent abuses and enough to make those who already waited happy.

 

Also where are the other forum members? There are like 6 people discussing this. This kind of suggestion should be discussed by more people.

Again, the point is NOT about speed and circumventing hatchling growth period. What you want, which seems to be quick unfreezing, seems impatient and I know a lot of people would use it to just freeze hatchlings right away and continue getting eggs, then unfreeze them later without bothering to actually raise them.

 

A few months, imo, is fine, and a year is a bit long but I think it's also fine, but I don't like anything too short because that's NOT the point of unfreezing. :\ Personally I like 6 months, myself.

[annageckos]

Not everyone feels comfortable replying. I rarely post. I don't want to be attacked, people can get heated here. Also afraid to get a warning.

 

Also where are the other forum members? There are like 6 people discussing this. This kind of suggestion should be discussed by more people.

I also would agree that there should be a failure rate, and that failure rate should mean death./i] I can easily see people (especially those who trade) taking advantage of it otherwise, freezing Caveborn Golds and Silvers and hoarding them until they have something insane like four gendered golden hatchlings for trade. It would make people trading for the golds more greedy, and make trading golds (and anything really) easier- if unfreezings were limitless, what would stop people from keeping and saving gendered, caveborn hatchlings, hoarding them, until someone wanted to trade for one? Then they could just pick out one they hatched oh, say, two years ago, and trade it off when they have a spare slot.

 

The failure rate was only suggested for people who wanted to try unfreezing before the year was up. That I can agree with, but I don't want to see a failure for after the time is up. I would never unfreeze if there was a chance of death. I also think that the unfrozen hatchlings should grow up upon unfreezing. That way they can not be traded, they are adults so are tied to that scroll.

Edited July 18, 2014 by annageckos

[danicast]

As far as I know the unfrozen hatchie becomes adult instantly so it can not be traded. I think this is enough measure to avoid problems with the market.

 

Six months is way more reasonable than a whole year but it's really necessary? I still stick with 90 days at max and NO failure rates. Freezing doesn't have failure rates.

Edited July 18, 2014 by danicast

[DragonLady86]

DC is my only game too. I'm 22, I don't have the patience for much else anymore (except maybe the neopets stock market, which I revisit maybe once a year to see what my million np investment is at now? I don't think that counts.)

 

99% of my time is shared equally between Etsy and DC.

 

I also would agree that there should be a failure rate, and that failure rate should mean death./i] I can easily see people (especially those who trade) taking advantage of it otherwise, freezing Caveborn Golds and Silvers and hoarding them until they have something insane like four gendered golden hatchlings for trade. It would make people trading for the golds more greedy, and make trading golds (and anything really) easier- if unfreezings were limitless, what would stop people from keeping and saving gendered, caveborn hatchlings, hoarding them, until someone wanted to trade for one? Then they could just pick out one they hatched oh, say, two years ago, and trade it off when they have a spare slot.

 

A lot of trading is pushed by the limited amount of time you have to do so- what would be the point of even trading eggs when you could ask for gendered hatchlings? So I think there should be that risk, if we are going to gain something that could quickly change the way people do trading.

Um, we don't need a failure rate to prevent trade hoarding. The general consensus is the hatchlings will NOT be tradable. Either they grow up instantly or locked to the scroll for however many days it takes them to grow up. So, no to a general fail rate, particularly with death as the consequence. Freezing doesn't have a fail rate, unfreezing shouldn't either.

 

 

That being said, A possible fail rate for trying early I could live with. (mine are all older than a year anyway for the ones I'd like to unfreeze)

 

 

 

I absolutely fail to see how "only hatchlings that have been frozen a year are eligible" is abusive in ANY way. How old is the youngest hatchling you currently have that you would maybe unfreeze? Most of mine are three years and up. The only instance it could really be seen as excessive, IMO is when you have multiple hatchings of a type and freeze the wrong one. But as to the few times I've done that, I've long since replaced them anyway. And for most dragons, it would likely be easier to replace than wait however long a time limit we end up with.

 

 

I would say DC is my main game even when I'm not actually doing much in game. Been here over 5 years, and keep the site and forums open every single day for however long I'm at the computer. Can't say anything else has that much of my attention span.

Edited July 18, 2014 by DragonLady86

[Fuzzbucket]

As far as I know the unfrozen hatchie becomes adult instantly so it can not be traded. I think this is enough measure to avoid problems with the market.

 

Six months is way more reasonable than a whole year but it's really necessary? I still stick with 90 days at max and NO failure rates. Freezing doesn't have failure rates.

Maybe it should actually. It would make it more interesting And you want it more INTERESTING, I gather, not just easier ?

 

But to reiterate - the failure thing is ONLY for people who aren't prepared to wait. A bit like taking the risk of biting into a newly baked cookie - if you do it at once you are burned; wait and you aren't.

 

But yes, the hatchie is to grow up at once. That still leaves people who froze things like Old Pinks able to command a HUGE premium in trading among people who need new blood and have offspring for the CB ones that were around before. Not to mention CB Hollies.

 

And it is still something that can be used to get around scroll limits. The time factor takes that abuse away.

[danicast]

CB holidays are limited per scroll fuzzbucket.

I don't see a problem with that.

Edited July 18, 2014 by danicast

[cyradis4]

CB holidays are limited per scroll fuzzbucket.

I don't see a problem with that.

The first thing when making a suggestion is to ask yourself:

Are you trying to solve an issue (perceived or otherwise) with game play, or are you trying to improve game play?

 

Then you must ask yourself:

What are the likely scenarios in which this suggestion would be used?

 

And lastly:

What are the ways in which this suggestion could be abused?

 

 

The answer I have to the first question is:

I'm trying to correct the problem of people freezing hatchies, then having the game change (or their game play change) a long time down the road, and them coming to regret their previous decision.

 

The answer to the second question:

The two scenarios which this suggestion is trying to ameliorate is:

- A change in the game, a la Holidays and the 2-per-scroll period limit now being two-CBs-per-scroll. That change in particular blind-sided many people in an unpleasant way.

- A change in how people play the game, a la they froze a CB Gold when they were a newbie and want to unfreeze it now

 

The answer to the last is:

It can be used to get around scroll limits, particularly at Holidays.

It can also be used to freeze hard-to-grow dragons, then get insta-adults later down the road without having to actually raise them.

 

This is not about adding a loop-hole to get around growing limits. TJ probably won't go for that. This isn't a way to get around having to actually get your dragons views, and growing them.

 

There is no way to prevent freezing - unfreezing from being used to get around growing thing limits at least some of the time. The very best we can do is make it inconvenient enough that almost all of the time its not worth it. And given Holidays, the best way to deal with that is to make the cooldown a year+, so that the unfrozen adult misses the following breeding season. Anything shorter than that, and it WILL be abused badly.

 

How am I so sure of that? Because I know that I would do just that. If the cooldown was less than 1 year, you bet I'll freeze 16 hatchies at each Holiday, then unfreeze them the month before the holiday in question. Except at the Holidays themselves, I rarely use my Holidays for breeding, so anything less than a full year (and the loss of a Holiday breeding season) will cause me to think twice about it. But the loss of that next breeding season definitely makes it less appealing. And for the non-Holidays? After 1 year, chances are I've long forgotten that I meant to unfreeze something, so it'd likely stay frozen (once again preventing abuse, though this time prevention-through-forgetfullness).

 

Some food for thought.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Fuzzbucket]

CB holidays are limited per scroll fuzzbucket.

I don't see a problem with that.

I know - but there would be a sudden new pool of new blood - especially with hollies, as there was an issue with them, which is the reason they are allowed as HM prizes..

 

And yes to everything cyradis just said. I cannot see that there is much of an issue with waiting, so the time delay seems entirely reasonable to me.

 

And yes, too, to the insta adults thing. I hadn't even thought much about that - but yes, it gets around something else in the game - waiting for your hatchies to grow up. Am, I scroll locked ? Oops, then I'll just freeze a few and then get on with it - I can unfreeze them again in a few days. That is NOT OK with me.

[danicast]

I still disagree because you are talking about a one lifetime event so I'll let TJ decide.

I think this action should be:

 

- Can be performed 10 times per 2 weeks.

- a frozen hatchie can be unfrozed after 90 days

 

and that's it. The players just got a nice new tool to play.

In the long run it will contribute to make the game more pleasant and attract more players.

[HeatherMarie]

Dragoncave is my ONLY game I play online. And between naming, breeding, raising, freezing, incubating, and using hatcheries, it's a pretty dang full-time game. I see how it can seem slow-paced to someone who's used to certain other games, but I sure don't see it that way.

 

I do NOT support any sort of failure-rate for unfreezing, there are already enough limitations on it. As far as the hatchies, having to be frozen for 1 year is fine with me. 6 months is fine with me. 3 months.... I'd prefer something longer.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Marie19R

[DragonLady86]

I still disagree because you are talking about a one lifetime event so I'll let TJ decide.

I think this action should be:

 

- Can be performed 10 times per 2 weeks.

- a frozen hatchie can be unfrozed after 90 days

 

and that's it. The players just got a nice new tool to play.

In the long run it will contribute to make the game more pleasant and attract more players.

Honestly, I don't expect any players to NEED to 10 unfreezes every 2 weeks. Unless of course the cool down between freezing and unfreezing is low enough to make it worthwhile to skirt the work of growing them. So, either it needs a longer timer OR a different limiter.

 

With a proposal of 90 days, heck yes that's worth it to me to not need to bother to grow my hatchies, freeze them now, grow them later. And it's not like I grow too many now, mostly just the new releases every month.....but if I was motivated, I could abuse the carp out of that.

 

I don't think amongst my several hundred frozen hatchling that I even have 10 I would like to unfreeze. (I have far more adults that grew up that I didn't want to. I like the hatchling sprites.) Most of them CB holidays if only so when I breed new ones for the AP each year that they actually find homes rather than being left to die. I also have one or two really nice lineages, that I could have continued had I cared about that a few years back.

 

Edit: forgot a word that changed entire meaning of sentence. lol

Edited July 19, 2014 by DragonLady86

[Guillotine]

I haven't posted much because i feel I've said my piece--or rather, I had until I saw the proposed failure rate! I'd much rather just not have the option open until the designated amount of time had passed instead of forgetting when I froze something and having it die because of it. :/

 

And yes, DC is my primary game in that it's the one I'm most active on; I prefer it since it's fairly simple and slow-paced.

[HeatherMarie]

Honestly, I don't expect any players to NEED to 10 unfreezes every 2 weeks. Unless of course the cool down between freezing and unfreezing is low enough to make it worthwhile to skirt the work of growing them. So, either it needs a longer timer OR a different limiter.

This is exactly why I support longer wait times re frozen/unfrozen. This is NOT supposed to be a loophole to raising hatchlings! And I think that's exactly what it's going to be if we don't make sure the limits are correct.