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Unfreezing

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Just going to point out a couple of things.

 

I keep seeing the phrase 'because of new/changed circumstances' being used. Since the only changed circumstance is the lifting of holiday limits, and TJ has said no to making an exception for that, this argument seems sort of circular to me.

 

The comparison between unfreezing and things like name changes, earthquake, expunge are not really comparable. Unfreezing hatchies and breeding eggs to gift, trade, or dump to the AP will affect all other players that pick up those eggs, to a lessor or greater extent, while those other actions affect mostly no one other than the scroll owner themselves.

I believe TJ said no to making the exception holiday-only. IIRC, the idea of changing freezing to be reversible would apply to all dragons. As in, the change in circumstances triggered the discussion, but the application of the proposed further alteration to the game would not be an exception but capable of being applied uniformly to all currently frozen dragons that meet universal requirements. Therefore it would not be an exception in the way that a "one-time unfreeze for past holidays" would have been.

 

I would also like to say that I really don't think it's going to have as massive an effect on the ratios as people seem terrified it will have.

 

If unfrozens are kept from counting towards the ratios, that prevents them from skewing them in the event they don't insta-adult. If the minimum requirement for time frozen before unfreezing becomes possible is equal to or greater than the amount of time before a dragon stops counting towards the ratios, then unfreezing will have no immediate effect.

 

I also argue that the breeding of these new adults will not likely have the massive effect people fear it will because the odds of actually getting an egg will be governed by the ratios in an identical manner to all other currently breedable dragons.

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Not this Christmas, no. The holiday eggs were pretty scarce to begin with, and only messy lineages were dumped back to the AP repeatedly.

Actually THAT's not true - I picked up a lot from the AP - pretty lineaged ones, almost all of them. The only real messes were Hollies. I was locked almost all the holiday season with assorted holiday stock !

 

And I have an average to shaky connection and a mouse that is on its last legs smile.gif

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Actually THAT's not true - I picked up a lot from the AP - pretty lineaged ones, almost all of them. The only real messes were Hollies. I was locked almost all the holiday season with assorted holiday stock !

 

And I have an average to shaky connection and a mouse that is on its last legs smile.gif

 

 

Well, comparatively speaking, lol, nothing like it used to be.

 

Looking at this from the perspective of a newer person, catching their own older Holiday dragons would not be the easy process they would have been told to expect prior to this.

 

Next year, it will be easier, with so many more breedable dragons producing, but a few more nicely lineaged/2nd gens coming into circulation certainly wouldn't hurt.

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I also argue that the breeding of these new adults will not likely have the massive effect people fear it will because the odds of actually getting an egg will be governed by the ratios in an identical manner to all other currently breedable dragons.

Omg SOOOO much this!! This is a *very* good point.

 

The *most* likely situation, in the case that I do unfreeze most or all of my 1-year-plus frozens: They are adults and get added to the list of adults that I try to remember to breed on a somewhat-normal basis (usually only metals and really-uncommons). The chance that I'll get *any* egg from those breedings is slim. I've been breeding my golds, silvers, and Tinsels regularly for a good year or so and have gotten *maybe* 3-5 eggs in all that time. The chance that the egg I *do* get will come from that one I unfroze? Slim-to-none.

 

Even if I were to unfreeze and breed my entire vine-hatchling army (no way in hell), the odds of my mass-breedings actually producing enough eggs to *effect* anything at all is almost non-existant.

 

And, since ratios are ratios are ratios, the more people breeding more unfrozens, the less people *producing* eggs.

 

So yeah, there's really no threat there. At all.

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Or in other words - you'll breed more eggs, and others will get "no interest" because you already filled the ratio slot.

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Another thing could be that any hatchlings unfrrozen and grown to adults will act like holidays, in that they'll have the "last bred" thing as if they were bred recently, so you can't just breed them straight away.

 

Dunno if that was mentioned but eh if so, I said it again because it would be something I support.

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Or in other words - you'll breed more eggs, and others will get "no interest" because you already filled the ratio slot.

Same exact thing could be said of anyone who collects and breeds rares. There's no good reason to vilify unfrozens when people are already collecting and breeding thousands more dragons every year. One unfrozen dragon a month--by a limited section of the userbase--hardly compares to the impact made by every active player in the game raising dozens a month.

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So, how many thousand CB Holidays from previous years do people raise?  rolleyes.gif

Probably as many as there are people playing the game multiplied by 2 or more? Things unfrozen after a year (which, as per the current idea, would be everything) fall into the "dragons from previous years - uncounted" bracket--kinda like every other past CB Holiday. :/

 

Seriously; do you think DC would have kicked the bucket if people had not frozen those dragons to begin with? I don't. Which suggests the ratios have a way to cope. Suggesting the breeding of a few more dragons is going to kill the system when there are so many countless more being added every day is just. What. How does that make sense, even.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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Probably as many as there are people playing the game multiplied by 2 or more? Things unfrozen after a year (which, as per the current idea, would be everything) fall into the "dragons from previous years - uncounted" bracket--kinda like every other past Holiday. :/

 

Seriously; do you think DC would have kicked the bucket if people had not frozen those dragons to begin with? I don't. Which suggests the ratios have a way to cope.

See, I always suspected that you only skim over what people write. I said: previous Holidays.

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See, I always suspected that you only skim over what people write. I said: previous Holidays.

except the answer is going to be the same: the number of any CB holiday is going to be roughly the amount of players at that time times 2.

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See, I always suspected that you only skim over what people write. I said: previous Holidays.

And the end result is the same. It doesn't matter when they're raised; they're over a year old, so they automatically fall into the "over a year old / don't count for ratios thing." Which makes them no different from all the other CB past Holidays.

 

I also see you avoiding why a few more dragons would be so horrific when we already get thousands more every day. Then again, I have long suspected you avoid fully responding to things...

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Reminder that personal attacks are not allowed. You are, of course, debating a person on the other side of the screen, but your post should be based on what they are saying, not your personal opinion of them.

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And the end result is the same. It doesn't matter when they're raised; they're over a year old, so they automatically fall into the "over a year old / don't count for ratios thing." Which makes them no different from all the other CB past Holidays.

 

~Removed~ I never said anything about the adults having affect on the ratios. It is their additional offspring because a second breeding (which would not have been possible if the hatchling was not unfrozen) affects the ratios and will prevent other people from breeding that egg.

 

Let me repeat it again: The unfrozen hatchling will be bred and most possibly will breed an egg that otherwise would have been bred by someone else. Unfreezing the hatchling takes away someone else's egg due to influencing the ratios. And that is not even mentioning that eggs from unfrozen hatchlings may also be traded, thus possibly preventing others that would have made that trade because the egg from the unfrozen hatchling would not be there.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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That's because you don't respond to arguments in the first place, but only repeat over and over what you already said. And if you would have read what I wrote, you'd realised that I never said anything about the adults having affect on the ratios. It is their additional offspring because a second breeding (which would not have been possible if the hatchling was not unfrozen) affects the ratios and will prevent other people from breeding that egg.

 

Let me repeat it again: The unfrozen hatchling will be bred and most possibly will breed an egg that otherwise would have been bred by someone else. Unfreezing the hatchling takes away someone else's egg due to influencing the ratios. And that is not even mentioning that eggs from unfrozen hatchlings may also be traded, thus possibly preventing others that would have made that trade because the egg from the unfrozen hatchling would not be there. Was that clear enough?

But how would those additional offspring be so much worse than the thousands of other dragons being bred every day? I get that it's only the eggs that would be influencing the ratios. However, again, unfrozens would be 11 per year, per people who choose to unfreeze them, which is a very limited amount in comparison to the dozens upon dozens of normal dragons being bred every day.

 

The argument you're making that their eggs could be taking away from other's breeding success can also be made for every new egg plucked out of the cave and AP, for every new egg bred, kept, and bred in future, for every person who breeds a common or rare or anything in between. The cave's dragon population (and thus its breeding population) increases by the truckload every single day. Accordingly, I don't see how a small number of unfrozen dragons would have any more impact than any other new dragon added to the breeding pool on a daily basis.

 

I guess you could say that unfrozen things are more likely to be bred then the average dragon, but even there things balance out; not everyone freezes in the first place, not everyone who does so would unfreeze, and not everyone who unfreezes would breed, so that small breeding pool shouldn't have much impact compared to the impact of the normal dragons people choose to raise and breed.

 

So, would some of the unfrozen's offspring potentially impact the breeding--and trading--success of others? Yes--but so will every other dragon that's bred and traded in any way, shape, or form. A person choosing to unfreeze a dragon and breed it will have no more impact than any other person breeding a dragon they've just freshly caught or bred.

 

Would you accuse someone of stealing away other's success if they chose to breed a dragon they never had previously? Because really, that's what the breeding of unfrozens is--the use of a resource we always had, but had previously chosen not to breed (by side effect of freezing it).

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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This seems like less of a discussion about freezing and more about one for limited breeding. /off-topic?

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I believe TJ said no to making the exception holiday-only. IIRC, the idea of changing freezing to be reversible would apply to all dragons. As in, the change in circumstances triggered the discussion, but the application of the proposed further alteration to the game would not be an exception but capable of being applied uniformly to all currently frozen dragons that meet universal requirements. Therefore it would not be an exception in the way that a "one-time unfreeze for past holidays" would have been.

Ugh, I have a massive headache so hard to phrase my thoughts, but that isn't really what I'm getting at.

I guess I'm curious as to what would you consider some compelling reasons for unfreezing other than "now I can breed that unfrozen holiday (since now more people can collect them)" Since the reason for unfreezing that I keep seeing mentioned over and over again is the 'change in circumstances' ie lifting holiday limits. Or is that the main reason for most people?

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Ugh, I have a massive headache so hard to phrase my thoughts, but that isn't really what I'm getting at.

I guess I'm curious as to what would you consider some compelling reasons for unfreezing other than "now I can breed that unfrozen holiday (since now more people can collect them)" Since the reason for unfreezing that I keep seeing mentioned over and over again is the 'change in circumstances' ie lifting holiday limits. Or is that the main reason for most people?

I think it is the main reason the topic came up this time. The possibility to unfreeze hatchlings has come up several times in the past.

 

I've posted several other reasons: made a mistake, old pinks/frills (though not sure if I'd unfreeze mine or not I don't breed the adults I have of those), various linages reasons, the possibility of GONs breeding (another suggestion thread). So, more CB holidays are 1 of several reasons, but at least this time around, is probably the main one.

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Ugh, I have a massive headache so hard to phrase my thoughts, but that isn't really what I'm getting at.

I guess I'm curious as to what would you consider some compelling reasons for unfreezing other than "now I can breed that unfrozen holiday (since now more people can collect them)" Since the reason for unfreezing that I keep seeing mentioned over and over again is the 'change in circumstances' ie lifting holiday limits. Or is that the main reason for most people?

I'd say, the main reason is to give people the ability to change their mind. Maybe the screen jumped, and they froze the wrong hatchie. Maybe they were a newbie and froze something they now wish they hadn't. Maybe they were an oldster who froze something that they now want, such as say.... A 10th gen pure bred Pink that they now have an unrelated 10th gen they want to breed it to. Or maybe something in the game changed, and they realize that they wish they hadn't froze something.

 

The super long cooldown and interval until you can even unfreeze to me can be viewed two ways:

1. To prevent abuse

2. Are you really really sure you wanna unfreeze that? I mean, if you still regret remember that you really didn't want that hatchie frozen a year later.... then it probably means a lot to you.

 

Who here has ever used Expunge? Anyone? I haven't. Very few have, I'll wager. But its still there, giving us an option we didn't have before. Giving us the ability to revisit a previously permanent decision.

 

Having this ability would make a lot of people very happy. This topic comes up on a quasi-regular basis anyway, even without the Holiday change. But the change to the Holidays has made a lot of people regret decisions they made before.

 

So why not? (And "because that's how it was" isn't a good enough reason, either tongue.gif )

 

Cheers!

C4.

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~Removed~ I never said anything about the adults having affect on the ratios. It is their additional offspring because a second breeding (which would not have been possible if the hatchling was not unfrozen) affects the ratios and will prevent other people from breeding that egg.

 

Let me repeat it again: The unfrozen hatchling will be bred and most possibly will breed an egg that otherwise would have been bred by someone else. Unfreezing the hatchling takes away someone else's egg due to influencing the ratios. And that is not even mentioning that eggs from unfrozen hatchlings may also be traded, thus possibly preventing others that would have made that trade because the egg from the unfrozen hatchling would not be there.

 

 

Lol, you do realize that with the limits removed on bred Holidays that there will be many more breeders producing many more eggs from many more Holidays every year from here on in?

 

The unFrozens would add some to the mix, and help fill out the numbers required now that everyone can fill their scrolls with bred Holidays while ensuring that there are enough for new people only just getting their first lot on likely new or Bronze trophy scrolls. smile.gif

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I'd say, the main reason is to give people the ability to change their mind. Maybe the screen jumped, and they froze the wrong hatchie. Maybe they were a newbie and froze something they now wish they hadn't. Maybe they were an oldster who froze something that they now want, such as say.... A 10th gen pure bred Pink that they now have an unrelated 10th gen they want to breed it to. Or maybe something in the game changed, and they realize that they wish they hadn't froze something.

You're making the claim that these are all related cases, when they're actually separate. It's important to figure out which goals are important, because they determine how things behave.

 

If people want to be able to undo accidentally-frozen hatchlings, then something that only works when the hatchling would still have time left solves that, but it doesn't deal with dragons from long ago.

 

On the other hand, solutions for hatchlings frozen way back would either need to grow up instantly or have time added back to them as hatchlings, which wouldn't work for recent freezes (if you don't want to open exploits).

 

If you did both based on when it was frozen, now it behaves inconsistently.

 

Who here has ever used Expunge? Anyone? I haven't. Very few have, I'll wager. But its still there, giving us an option we didn't have before. Giving us the ability to revisit a previously permanent decision.

This is a different case. Freezing was designed as a permanent operation. The inability to remove zombies was more a lack of a clean way to implement it, rather than an intentional decision.

Edited by TJ09

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On the other hand, solutions for hatchlings frozen way back would either need to grow up instantly or have time added back to them as hatchlings, which wouldn't work for recent freezes (if you don't want to open exploits).

 

If you did both based on when it was frozen, now it behaves inconsistently.

That's why there were time limits suggested for anything frozen. I think I've seen stuff like needing to be frozen for a month before being able to be unfrozen.

 

Many people seem to be in favor of the hatchlings growing up straight away rather than giving time to the hatchlings, which would help prevent trading. Why they could be locked to the scrolls, I think it would be easier to make them into adults. That's just my thought, though.

 

Due to exploitation problems brought up, I think that being able to unfreeze recents and give them time back wouldn't be as good. Someone could basically save a hatchling from dying, only to unfreeze afterwards to give it more time (unless it just gets the time back that it would have had, but even that is exploitable, as you could freeze it until you were available to take care of it). To be fair, you could use the same exploitative technique of freezing before death to wait until a month passes and get a free adult...

 

There's not really a good way of going about it...Perhaps the hatchling has to have enough views for it to be able to grow, and if it doesn't, the unfreezing fails and it dies?

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You're making the claim that these are all related cases, when they're actually separate. It's important to figure out which goals are important, because they determine how things behave.

 

If people want to be able to undo accidentally-frozen hatchlings, then something that only works when the hatchling would still have time left solves that, but it doesn't deal with dragons from long ago.

 

On the other hand, solutions for hatchlings frozen way back would either need to grow up instantly or have time added back to them as hatchlings, which wouldn't work for recent freezes (if you don't want to open exploits).

 

If you did both based on when it was frozen, now it behaves inconsistently.

I think the goal is to cover both, though, as well as any other cases where freezing was regretted. As you said, the solution for just accidentally frozens (unfreezing within the time they had left to grow up) and the solution for just long ago frozens (which would allow people to freeze and then immediately get instant adults / more time) are at odds; the former does nothing for people with really old frozens they regret while the latter would allow people to freeze and unfreeze things right away to get adults or extra time. However, the current idea (anything can be unfrozen after a year, and is reset to seven days to grow) would allow both types of things to be unfrozen, even if it takes a while, and would prevent abuse by keeping people from skirting limits and skipping the raising process (through the long cooldown--the 13 month cooldown idea to prevent Holiday abuse is an interesting idea, too--and by resetting to seven days to raise).

 

As far as the zombie thing goes, I think it's more a matter of just having choice. Even if Zombies weren't intended to be permanent--people did choose to create them, right? So adding expunge was still a sort of undo button for those who decided they no longer wanted them, just like kill / release are ways to get rid of things that, in theory, one once made a choice to raise. A way to more or less reverse actions once performed that are no longer desirable, much like old freezings that might now be regretted.

 

In conclusion of my random ideas; while freezing was designed to be permanent, it was presumably made as such to prevent the aforementioned abuses of freezing/unfreezing to get instant adults or "hold over" valuable hatchlings while one collected more. But with the regulations already proposed, I think that such abuse would be severely limited, if not halted entirely--and if the thing unfreezing was disallowed for is thus managed for, is there still a good reason for freezing to be permanent?

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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Just to throw another potential complication out there...

 

What if someone froze a hatchling at S1, and would like to gender it, but not grow it all the way to adulthood? That could apply both to recently frozen hatchlings, and to years-old hatchlings before S1 freezing was official, and the pre-freezing views turned out not to be enough to eventually gender the hatchling. If the insta-adult approach is used, that would not be possible. It also would not be possible if refreezing of unfrozen hatchlings is not allowed. Should gendering of frozen hatchlings be possible, though?

 

Actually, that gives me a (probably overcomplicated) idea. Perhaps unfreezing is actually something done in stages. When you unfreeze, it's only partial, and automatically adds one stage of growth. So an S2 hatchling would become an instant adult, but an S1 hatchling would only reach S2. It would then need to be unfrozen a second time (possibly with another lengthy delay like a freshly frozen hatchling, possibly only with the delay of the general unfreeze cooldown) to grow to adulthood.

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That's why there were time limits suggested for anything frozen. I think I've seen stuff like needing to be frozen for a month before being able to be unfrozen.

 

Many people seem to be in favor of the hatchlings growing up straight away rather than giving time to the hatchlings, which would help prevent trading. Why they could be locked to the scrolls, I think it would be easier to make them into adults. That's just my thought, though.

 

Due to exploitation problems brought up, I think that being able to unfreeze recents and give them time back wouldn't be as good. Someone could basically save a hatchling from dying, only to unfreeze afterwards to give it more time (unless it just gets the time back that it would have had, but even that is exploitable, as you could freeze it until you were available to take care of it). To be fair, you could use the same exploitative technique of freezing before death to wait until a month passes and get a free adult...

 

There's not really a good way of going about it...Perhaps the hatchling has to have enough views for it to be able to grow, and if it doesn't, the unfreezing fails and it dies?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi, edwardelricfreak,

 

regarding '... To be fair, you could use the same exploitative technique of freezing before death to wait until a month passes and get a free adult... ...'

 

just to mention, the general trend seems to be more toward a requirement of 6 months to a year in a Frozen state prior to unfreezing a hatchy, at a rate not exceeding one dispelling per scroll per month.

 

 

Also, with reference to: .'...Perhaps the hatchling has to have enough views for it to be able to grow, and if it doesn't, the unfreezing fails and it dies? ...'

 

people, especially those with a large number of Frozens, accumulated possibly over a period of ?6? years? (not sure when Freezing became available) may not remember that, in example, a beautifully lineaged hatchy, which they particularly wanted to unFreeze because they'd just acquired the perfect mate, had been Frozen because they'd snagged it off the AP minutes before death.

 

This just seems cruel, lol.

 

I'm also not sure why there's so much focus on killing hatchies, when the possibility of losing a dragon, either to death or to abandonment, would render the dispelling as useless to many as is Earthquake, because of the risk involved.

 

There are a vast number of restrictions already suggested, and it seems to me that a limitation to hatchies Frozen over a year previous and a maximum of one dispelling a month per scroll ought to be sufficient in this area...

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