Unfreezing

[RainDear]

So, again, the idea that if not everything can be perfect = nothing can be perfect.

 

Should not everyone being able to get rares mean rare x rare breeding should never have been allowed?

 

Does the fact that only some people name their dragons mean adding the ability to change our dragon's names was unfairly one-sided in who it benefited, as it could only be of use to those with named dragons?

 

Was expunge a horrible idea, as it allowed people who knowingly created zombies to then undo something they'd done previously? Could the same be said of the above ability to rename things?

 

I'd say the answer to all of those is "no," and for the same reasons I'd say that people not being able to magically get Old Pinks / Frills is no good reason to disallow those who do have them from being able to unfreeze them.

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

No, just because someone is against this change does not mean that they are against all change or that they want to undo other changes that have been made. This one change is under discussion. Not every change that ever happened or could happen is under discussion. Being opposed to this one change does not equate to being against any other change. I have been in favor of other suggested changes, and opposed to some, but just because I oppose certain changes does not mean that I oppose any change, or that I don't want the game to change in ways that I see as improvements. I just don't see this proposed change as an improvement.

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

No, just because someone is against this change does not mean that they are against all change or that they want to undo other changes that have been made. This one change is under discussion. Not every change that ever happened or could happen is under discussion. Being opposed to this one change does not equate to being against any other change. I have been in favor of other suggested changes, and opposed to some, but just because I oppose certain changes does not mean that I oppose any change, or that I don't want the game to change in ways that I see as improvements. I just don't see this proposed change as an improvement.

The person I was replying to was against this because 1) they felt it was only useful to one group and 2) because it wasn't fair to do if people couldn't get Old Pinks / Frills. I was showing examples of other things that only proved useful to one group / didn't fix every problem in the world that have proved very useful to the cave, not suggesting that everyone who is against this is against all changes.

[Syphoneira]

I had to do that once... back in 2008 I accidentally named a dragon my Password because I thought I clicked on Freeze dragon rather than Name dragon... heh

 

I personally do not see the need for this change.  I can see a lot of people exploiting it and trying to get rares and such that they normally wouldn't have access too.. but my feelings and thoughts on it have already been discussed by others.

 

Even though I don't personally like the idea, and wouldn't use it myself (like expunge or earthquake) I did have an interesting idea for a BSA concept for it ...

 

I don't think there are any dragons in the cave currently who could do it but, if there was a dragon who had a "time" theme... like father time/sands of time/hourglass  they could have a BSA allowing them (on a very long ish cd) to turn back the sands of time and unfreeze one hatchling.  Something like that might be cool and fit into the rp aspect of the cave dynamics.

 

 

Hi, Melisande,

 

if you have any concerns which have not been addressed as to how this could be exploited by anyone, please post them so that they can be worked out and avoided, by whatever means feasible, in this Suggestion?

 

Input of this kind would be invaluable!

 

 

 

Hello, raindeer!

 

Please let me reassure you that nobody could EVER possibly think that you were 'childish, selfish, or any of the other derogatory terms that are being thrown at persons who are against this particular change' or that you're 'against all change' and that of course it's your right to object to suggestions and express your own opinion!

 

This may have been applied generally to people who have said such things as that since not everyone can have CBs of everything, or because not everything can be fixed for everyone, that nobody should have any fixes, but never to you for politely posting such things as that you 'just don't see this proposed change as an improvement'!

 

People having different opinions on various subjects is normal and natural, and disagreeing on a subject bears no relation to people 'having an unpleasant disagreement'!

 

It's just that those of us who believe this to be fair under the circumstances do believe this to be an improvement, and one that changes nothing for anyone else, so that we support it on these grounds, in order to make what people we can happier.

 

 

Edit: ed (I iz slow typist...)

Edited January 5, 2014 by Syphoneira

[Melisande]

 

Hi, Melisande,

 

if you have any concerns which have not been addressed as to how this could be exploited by anyone, please post them so that they can be worked out and avoided, by whatever means feasible, in this Suggestion?

 

Input of this kind would be invaluable!

 

Most of my points are already covered I think

 

I think mainly for me it's more that the hatchlings either become adults auto or are not able to be traded really... It's one thing to want to bring back dying out breeding stock it's another to unfreeze retired/limited things to trade for omg cb metals and such.

 

Also maybe make a time limit of how long it needs to be frozen before it can be unfrozen, to prevent people from just freezing to open up a space on their scroll because they see something else they want and then popping the hatching back on again after they have room or auto getting an adult.

 

Also, as some one who freezes because they want to (trying to restart my army, when I was hacked they released a lot of my dragons and more than half of my frozen babies) there are a lot of people out there who see freezing hatchlings as wrong. I actauly have gotten pm's and nasty comments on fan sites about having "rare" dragons frozen, and that it's a shame and a bad thing and that it's disrespectful to others who were not able to catch them or the breeders if it's not cb.

 

If this dose go into place part of me worries that people who have older frozen rares / retired dragons may be targeted to try to unfreeze because people want them to breed for them / try to trade them the baby. I have heard a number of people say (in the forums and other places) that if you didn't want the dragon you should have given it away not frozen it... yet I know for myself every one I have frozen I did so because I wanted that type of dragon to freeze. I don't want any one to be harassed of feel pressured into unfreezing something that that wanted to freeze.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Most of my points are already covered I think

 

I think mainly for me it's more that the hatchlings either become adults auto or are not able to be traded really... It's one thing to want to bring back dying out breeding stock it's another to unfreeze retired/limited things to trade for omg cb metals and such.

 

Also maybe make a time limit of how long it needs to be frozen before it can be unfrozen, to prevent people from just freezing to open up a space on their scroll because they see something else they want and then popping the hatching back on again after they have room or auto getting an adult.

 

Also, as some one who freezes because they want to (trying to restart my army, when I was hacked they released a lot of my dragons and more than half of my frozen babies) there are a lot of people out there who see freezing hatchlings as wrong. I actauly have gotten pm's and nasty comments on fan sites about having "rare" dragons frozen, and that it's a shame and a bad thing and that it's disrespectful to others who were not able to catch them or the breeders if it's not cb.

 

If this dose go into place part of me worries that people who have older frozen rares / retired dragons may be targeted to try to unfreeze because people want them to breed for them / try to trade them the baby. I have heard a number of people say (in the forums and other places) that if you didn't want the dragon you should have given it away not frozen it... yet I know for myself every one I have frozen I did so because I wanted that type of dragon to freeze. I don't want any one to be harassed of feel pressured into unfreezing something that that wanted to freeze.

Most of the suggestions already involve preventing trading / limiting when things can be unfrozen

 

Also, as you just said, there are already people who will harass for things being frozen when they can't be unfrozen. So even if people harassed others over this (which I doubt would happen in any abundance--there's a thread of people who already gift offspring from discontinueds for free, and low-gen Metals aren't that hard to get, either), the only difference from now would be that the wording would be different. I don't think it'd create any more such issues than already exist.

[Melisande]

Most of the suggestions already involve preventing trading / limiting when things can be unfrozen

 

Also, as you just said, there are already people who will harass for things being frozen when they can't be unfrozen. So even if people harassed others over this (which I doubt would happen in any abundance--there's a thread of people who already gift offspring from discontinueds for free, and low-gen Metals aren't that hard to get, either), the only difference from now would be that the wording would be different. I don't think it'd create any more such issues than already exist.

mmm I just ... I am not good with people some times, especially when they start picking on you for stupid things. heh

 

When I first stared following this thread I was against the idea, since there are a lot of ways (unchecked) that it could be bad... but in a lot of the comments and suggestions people have thought of limits and rules and things.

 

So even though personally I'm not fond of this, I'm not saying I'm against it any more. Just against it going into place if it can be exploited. It'll end up being like expunge or earthquake. there but you never use them because they don't really make a difference to you.

 

( I think my spelling is ok this time... English is not my native language and spell check is not always friendly to me)

[LibbyLishly]

Most of my points are already covered I think

 

I think mainly for me it's more that the hatchlings either become adults auto or  are not able to be traded really... It's one thing to want to bring back dying out breeding stock it's another to unfreeze retired/limited things to trade for omg cb metals and such.

 

Also maybe make a time limit of how long it needs to be frozen before it can be unfrozen, to prevent people from just freezing to open up a space on their scroll because they see something else they want and then popping the hatching back on again after they have room or auto getting an adult.

 

Also, as some one who freezes because they want to (trying to restart my army, when I was hacked they released a lot of my dragons and more than half of my frozen babies) there are a lot of people out there who see freezing hatchlings as wrong.  I actauly have gotten pm's and nasty comments on fan sites about having "rare" dragons frozen, and that it's a shame and a bad thing and that it's disrespectful to others who were not able to catch them or the breeders if it's not cb.

 

If this dose go into place part of me worries that people who have older frozen rares / retired dragons may be targeted to try to unfreeze because people want them to breed for them / try to trade them the baby.  I have heard a number of people say (in the forums and other places) that if you didn't want the dragon you should have given it away not frozen it... yet I know for myself every one I have frozen I did so because I wanted that type of dragon to freeze.  I don't want any one to be harassed of feel pressured into unfreezing something that that wanted to freeze.

Most of us TOTALLY agree with all your points.

 

That's why, in the top post, I've made it as clear as I could that if a frozen hatchling is restored to a growing hatchling, they must not be tradeable. Most of the supporters of an unfreeze action would not support it at all if the hatchlings became tradeable. There was a little bit of back and forth about it, but I think we've settled that this change simply won't go through if the ability to trade the unfrozens exists in any way.

 

We've also discussed needing the hatchlings to be frozen for a full year before they are eligible to be unfrozen to prevent the kinds of exploitation you mentioned, as well as having only a limited number of unfreezes (only 1!) per month/ 31 days. We're working to make this basically impossible to abuse.

 

I think it's a real shame that people harass you for freezing. They're your babies and if you want to freeze them, it won't hurt them - they just get perpetual youth! You caught or traded for it or were given it, all fair and square, and no one has any right to tell you what to do with your own dragons. If people harass you about that, or try to get you (or other freezers) to unfreeze just so that you can breed something for them, you should definitely report them. Harassment is NOT okay.

 

ETA: Hah, 'd by both ADP and you.

Edited January 5, 2014 by LibbyLishly

[DragonLady86]

I would like to add another possible (future) reason for this. Allow GoNs to breed Even if they don't breed true, which is a suggestion in the thread. Many lineage builders would be upset to know that they have frozen one of their two thus limiting what they could do with them if this suggestion should take place.

 

So, yes this is also a suggestion and may not happen, but if it does I think it will add to the number of people that would like to have an unfreeze option. It's already convinced me not to summon anymore because I'd planed to freeze my second one and that would be upsetting if they suddenly could actually do other things besides decorate my scroll.

[GreenDragonMama]

I believe freezing should be kept permanent.

 

People knew when they froze their hatchlings, that it was permanent. If they froze holiday hatchlings, knowing there was a two per scroll, then they shouldn't be complaining now and wanting to be able to unfreeze them.

 

Besides, remember some hatchlings have been frozen for years, and if they're unfrozen, they just might die, because of the time is way past their grow up time.

 

I didn't like the idea of freezing hatchlings, for a long time, but now I try to freeze one male and one female, except for my holidays.

 

I just wish we could freeze eggs too, that way we could have an entire set, egg, hatchlings, and adults, so when a dragon gets retired, we'd be able to remember them.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

People knew when they froze their hatchlings, that it was permanent. If they froze holiday hatchlings, knowing there was a two per scroll, then they shouldn't be complaining now and wanting to be able to unfreeze them.

 

Besides, remember some hatchlings have been frozen for years, and if they're unfrozen, they just might die, because of the time is way past their grow up time.

Many of us only froze them because there was a limit. Choosing between a limited time adult and a hatchling was a lot less painful when you knew it was the only way you could get that hatchling. Now, however...

 

The current idea is to reset them to seven days to live, negating that concern. It's been proven possible before because hatchlings that run out of time and are revived receive extra time, so the coding is already half ready in that regard.

Edited January 5, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Natayah]

I'm not sure how I'm selfish by disagreeing with this. I've heard that term thrown around a lot prior in this thread to anyone who doesn't support this measure. So I decided to break down how it seemed to me, if anything, the inverse was true. Now I'm not saying people who support this are selfish, but I promise you the people who disagree .... are not selfish.

Maybe a better term would be jealous if you feel you need one. But Not Selfish.

 

I think supporting this idea with the inability to breed prior frozen hatchies is a great compromise because everyone wins. I understand we want a way to use another magic spell. There was never a mention that your unfrozen hatchies, now adults, needed to be able to breed. Why do they need to be able to breed? I mean... is there a large incentive for you to be able to breed them that no one wants to talk about that incentive and how it impacts a tiny small group vs the game at large? If the incentive to be able to breed them in the first place was so large, then they shouldn't have been frozen in the first place. Thats forward thinking and gambling. At the time you thought it was more important to have a baby sprite and adult sprite. TJ never said Holiday Sprites were going to be a one time only thing. or if he did he changed his mind. You could have kept both CB adults, seen how it progressed, and if you still _really_ wanted that baby sprite or another lineage or whatever else, you could have made the choice to release your CB adult and freeze a non CB sprite any time in the future.

 

So... I'm pretty firmly on the not allowing this ever fence right now, but the fact that the idea of an adult that cannot breed making people think that is too far over the line and so unfair, to me, feels to reenforce my opinion that the real objective of this "mechanism change" not about unfreezing. Its about dragon value. And not for everyone who supports it. But there are certain people who have a lot to gain and they are very vocal about these other reasons. But those reasons don't make sense to me to be such a driving force. Dragon Values, that seems like more of a driving force.

 

You can take that as me being mean and "selfish" all you like. Its not. I have always thought this proposition was a really interesting idea. I just felt that some of the supporters supported it more for the values of the dragons they would unlock vs it actually being some other reasoning. And that is the biggest issue I have with this topic. Because I think an unfreezing option has some really great potential, however, we have to weigh it against other factors. I don't think you should lose your dragon and have it run off to the wild. I just think it shouldn't be able to breed. Now you have the adult sprite you wanted. Gratz! But just to make it fair, since you did choose to freeze it, you don't get the ability to breed it, then no one can really complain about it being an issue of you wanting to gain the value of the offspring from unfreezing.

 

But if that is somehow a selfish and horrible and mean position because I'm actually willing to put it into words instead of tip-toeing a major objection, then by all means, I think the drama should be avoided and no one should have it.

 

So I think adding the No Breeding Option is an important option in proposing this idea and needs to be seriously considered and would help it get past any further objections.

Edited January 6, 2014 by natayah

[Melisande]

So I think adding the No Breeding Option is an important option in proposing this idea and needs to be seriously considered and would help it get past any further objections.

I'm not sure if that could work though. I don't know coding much, but I do not know if trying to stop dragons from breeding because they were unfrozen won't mess up other lines in the code for normal breeding. You think it sounds simple, but I've seen in other games you try to change 1 simple thing and it can bring servers down. This isn't that drastic, but if there's even say one , or . out of place you could make it so that all dragons of that species can't breed and it takes a long time to go through every line of code to find the . or , when trying to fix it. I don't think breeding would be an issue too much though. Frills are retired so only breed the other dragon's type with a low sucess rate, pinks breed fp's, and holiday dragons only breed true during their holiday season. Other than that all other types are obtainable.

[olympe]

So I think adding the No Breeding Option is an important option in proposing this idea and needs to be seriously considered and would help it get past any further objections.

 

If that gets through, it would be more of a cosmetic change. And only half-hearted. Like being able to unname a dragon - with the drawback that you'll never be able to name it again.

 

What I could understand is a bit of a compromise - like unfrozen dragons only being able to breed if hit with the purple dragons' Fertility BSA - which would give that darned BSA a good use.

Or another dose of a potential white dragons' Heal BSA - in order to undo any potential damage done by the Freezing/Unfreezing.

 

 

And even though the topic of this thread is, "Should Freezing Be Permanent?" it's not the only question we need to take into account.

 

First of all, there's, "Does Freezing have to be non-undoable?"

I think the answer to that one is a clear no. It doesn't have to be.

 

Second, there's, "Should Freezing be undoable?"

Which is what has been discussed at lenght. Sure, there are restrictions most people here agree on - non-tradability of the unfrozen hatchling, some kind of minimal waiting period plus limited uses - regardless of whether they support this entirely or argue just in case this suggestion does go through anyway. I have a feeling that the majority is pro-unfreezing, though. (Can we have a poll, maybe?)

 

I think there are some more things we should look at, but it's almost 2 am over here, and my thinking isn't quite at its best right now.

 

 

 

[LibbyLishly]

(Can we have a poll, maybe?)

Ahhhh, the polls...

 

I don't want to derail this topic, but I hate polls for several reasons.

 

1. You can't change your vote with the current forum software. It's literally not a possibility, and a lot of folks are convinced to switch sides but it never reflects in the poll.

 

2. A poll tends to reflect only knee-jerk reactions, not a carefully-thought-through consideration of the topic. We're getting enough knee-jerk reaction posts from people who clearly didn't read the whole first post, despite the fact that I've asked them in bold red to do so.

 

3. TJ himself doesn't actually take poll results into consideration. Here is his quote from this recent thread regarding vote changing:

I've seen a tendency for people to misconstrue polls as being an accurate sample of what the DC user base thinks. I'm sure people will say that of course they aren't representative, but that doesn't reflect actual behavior I've seen.

 

Because of the sample bias involved, I rarely bother looking at the results of polls, and almost never use them as a basis for decisions. I find it really hard to think of polls as any sort of useful way to gauge opinion on a suggestion, and would strongly discourage their use here.

 

Actual discussions, while even more biased in terms of who will bother participating (people who don't feel strongly are highly unlikely to post as such), are much more useful.

 

All of that to say: I really, really don't want to add a poll. I think it could potentially do more harm than good.

[HeatherMarie]

So I think adding the No Breeding Option is an important option in proposing this idea and needs to be seriously considered and would help it get past any further objections.

With *all* the current (see the OP) restrictions/limitations put onto this idea, I honestly don't see many people objecting to this idea because the dragon would be breedable.

 

But just to make it fair, since you did choose to freeze it, you don't get the ability to breed it, then no one can really complain about it being an issue of you wanting to gain the value of the offspring from unfreezing.

 

But why would that be a bad thing? Users already trade however they like, often asking insane prices for their more wanted offspring. There are no regulations on how people trade, what they ask for, what they offer, etc. So why would it matter, in the big picture, if more people were able to offer trades for valuable offspring? No one is being pressured to agree to their terms or accept their offspring or anything like that.

 

As has been said in this thread before, trading fluctuates a LOT. A frozen CB hatchling that *may* have been super-valuable to breed when it was frozen, may not be worth crap now. I think the only big demand for low-gen holidays nowadays is Hollies.

 

And as *I've* said before, breeding a previously unbreedable dragon isn't a bad thing. A lot of us (more then you probably think!) don't care about value and often breed rares and uncommons just to gift them or drop them in the AP for some lucky user to grab. If (and I don't know, because I don't follow trading-trends) Frill/Bright Pink offspring are valuable, making those hatchlings grow up and be breedable would mean making more of those offspring that people want. .... Why is that a bad thing?

 

I have been agreeable (or compromisable) about ALL the MANY restrictions on this suggested feature. I do NOT support an unfrozen being unbreedable.

[cyradis4]

So I think adding the No Breeding Option is an important option in proposing this idea and needs to be seriously considered and would help it get past any further objections.

Why don't you just stand firm by your decision that you don't like it and don't want unfreezing? Because an unbreedable dragon is as useless as a frozen hatchling. And this isn't just directed at you, its directed at all advocates of the "unfrozen must be unbreedable!" persuasion.

 

If you make an unfrozen unbreedable, you GUARANTEE no one will ever use it, because guess what? Breeding it is the whole reason almost everyone wants to unfreeze them in the first place!

 

What a way to say, "Hey look I'm compromising!" while at the same time hamstringing the idea, making it completely useless.

 

I'm sorry, but I call that hypocrisy. Pretending to compromise while at the same time your compromise is nothing of the sort.

 

So no, I do not think the "unbreedable" is an improvement. I think its a useless addition that destroys the entire point of being able to unfreeze.

 

C4.

[Vhale]

/hands cyradis4 an internets

Very well put.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think supporting this idea with the inability to breed prior frozen hatchies is a great compromise because everyone wins.

 

[...]

 

TJ never said Holiday Sprites were going to be a one time only thing. or if he did he changed his mind. You could have kept both CB adults, seen how it progressed, and if you still _really_ wanted that baby sprite or another lineage or whatever else, you could have made the choice to release your CB adult and freeze a non CB sprite any time in the future.

 

[...]

 

but the fact that the idea of an adult that cannot breed making people think that is too far over the line and so unfair, to me, feels to reenforce my opinion that the real objective of this "mechanism change" not about unfreezing. Its about dragon value. And not for everyone who supports it. But there are certain people who have a lot to gain and they are very vocal about these other reasons. But those reasons don't make sense to me to be such a driving force. Dragon Values, that seems like more of a driving force.

I cut this down a lot because there were just a few points I wanted to address; I hope I haven't made you feel misquoted in doing so. Now onward!

 

Removing breeding is a far cry from "everyone wins." I have yet to see anyone in the entire thread saying "I really wish I could unfreeze this just so I could look at another adult sprite" (or well, ok, I think there was one person, but for most it's not the goal). Almost everything in the game, bar Neglecteds and Hollies, is pretty easy to get a messy of if you just ask. So, no, just being able to get back an adult sprite that can't be used is not a "win."

 

-

 

People did wait to see how things progressed. For, you know, five years. Five years, and there was no change on the Holiday limit front (indeed, TJ's responses in the raising limits thread--which existed for nearly three years, I believe--usually seemed to tear apart whatever the best idea at the time was. It was hardly encouraging). With that considered, I really don't think it's fair to wag a finger at people for not waiting and evaluating the options long enough!

 

-

 

I've gone over this many times, but I will again. Is this about the value of the dragons? Yes--but not in a trading way, at least not for many of us. I gift low-gen Metals. I gifted every 2g Christmas I bred this year. I have it right in my signature that I take breeding requests. My main reason for wanting to unfreeze certain things is so I can either 1) gift even more or 2) not have to choose between gifting and building my own lineages every Holiday. Also because it'd be nice if I could at least build 3g Holiday checkers without having to worry about involving other people in the lineage and possibly getting that half deadlined...

 

But, even if people DO want this for trading purposes. Let's examine the main things that will likely be unfrozen:

 

- CB Holidays: Many 2gs of these are gifted for free. Even those that are kept don't seem to trade for much (save Hollies, of which I doubt there are many valuable frozen ones), and even those that are kept usually shower 2-3 extra eggs into the AP for people to grab for free. So more CBs = more 2gs in the AP, not more difficultly in getting 2gs.

 

- Frills / Old Pinks: The offspring of these go for even less than the above. Indeed, there's an entire thread that lists people willing to breed offspring from them for free. Again hardly making anyone rich, here.

 

- Low gen Metals: Probably the most potentially valuable of the lot, but even these aren't a gamebreaker. The best that could happen was someone unfreezing a CB and breeding 2gs, and while those are fairly valuable, they aren't as valuable as you might think (I see them go through departures and raffles often, hear tales of them being caught in the AP, and can't seem to get much for mine when I do bother trying to trade them--again hardly making anyone rich).

 

Also bear in mind that the amount of people who froze these things to begin with is probably low, further decreasing the impact.

 

Between all that and all the other limits placed on unfreezing already, I hardly think making them unbreedable is necessary. Will some people gain some trade benefit from unfreezing? Sure, but it won't be much, and in some cases (like Holidays) it will even do more good than harm.

[RainDear]

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

Though I am not in favor of this change, I would be very much against making unfrozen hatchlings unbreedable. This would be a slap in the face of those who want this in order to supply more 2 gen holidays to others, whether they intend to gift or trade. We shouldn't make the option unusable to those who want it just because we aren't in favor of the option.

 

Making the unspelled hatchling grow to adulthood, giving a wait time of months before a particular hatchling can be unspelled, and the other limitations to prevent abuse of the option is enough, in my opinion.

[Thuban]

<~~is to blame for the "make them unbreedable" nonsense.

 

 

The reason is simple: Freezing was meant to be permanent. It doesnt matter that the game has changed, because the rules at the time the stuff got frozen were pretty cut and dry. We are /still/ limited to two cbs, but now people know they WILL be able to have more than two, and can just plan to freeze one the following year. There is no reason that the change to the rules should have to be retroactive. If a game you have been playing for years suddenly decided its currency should change, and be worth more.. they are not going to go back through years of data, to give you the currency you would have had, had the changes happened a few years before. For a lot of people around here, dragons /are/ a form of currency. They can be traded for better stuff.

 

With the upped limits, more people have more of the older dragons, so claiming to do it for the newer players is a joke. There will be plenty of babies for them to grab in the ap, and every year, the ability to catch them will get easier, as people gain more and more of them to breed.

 

 

 

 

[HeatherMarie]

<~~is to blame for the "make them unbreedable" nonsense.

 

 

The reason is simple: Freezing was meant to be permanent. It doesnt matter that the game has changed, because the rules at the time the stuff got frozen were pretty cut and dry.

Just as the text for the "naming" action used to say it was IRREVERSIBLE, in all caps. Just as we used to be warned over and over that Zombies will forever remain on your scroll and you can't get rid of them. Just as we used to be told that "trading" is not an official part of the game so do it at your own risk.

 

All of those things changed. When I named my very first dragon, it was "pretty cut and dry" that it's permanent and I better make a dang good decision. The game changed, and now *it's different* and we *can* go back and retroactively change names.

 

If a user successfully made a Zombie a year ago, it was with the knowledge the action could not be undone. Zombies were forever. That's not the case now. Now we have a BSA to remove Zombies, and can *retroactively* remove ones we made a long time ago.

 

"Freezing was meant to be permanent" really isn't a good reason to shoot down this suggestion, since DC's history has made it clear that things change and "permanent" can and does change.

 

I don't know if you consider this "claiming to do it for newer players" which is apparently a "joke" to you, but it's a cut and dry fact that more adults means more breeding. Whether it's through trading or gifting or the AP, there WILL be more rare and uncommon eggs out there because of unfreezing. That's a simple fact.

 

But not if they are unbreedable. Then they are useless, not just to the people who unfreeze them but to *everyone else* who could indirectly benefit from this suggestion.

[Jazeki]

So, again, the idea that if not everything can be perfect = nothing can be perfect.

 

Should not everyone being able to get rares mean rare x rare breeding should never have been allowed?

 

Does the fact that only some people name their dragons mean adding the ability to change our dragon's names was unfairly one-sided in who it benefited, as it could only be of use to those with named dragons?

 

Was expunge a horrible idea, as it allowed people who knowingly created zombies to then undo something they'd done previously? Could the same be said of the above ability to rename things?

 

I'd say the answer to all of those is "no," and for the same reasons I'd say that people not being able to magically get Old Pinks / Frills is no good reason to disallow those who do have them from being able to unfreeze them.

I never said or implied that this or any of the changes were "horrible" or should not have ever been allowed and I began by agreeing with your suggestion of how unfreezing should go should it be implemented, but still hold that unfreezing should not be implemented. Frankly, whatever I feel or felt about any of the other changes is irrelevant to this suggestion. My noting of the frills and old pinks was an example of how I see this being used as a means to take care of what is being treated as a mistake/missed [breeding] opportunity because a user chose to freeze a hatchling rather than letting it grow up. That is my primary disagreement with the suggestion.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Jazeki

[Ashes The Second]

I agree with Thuban here, and what people seem to be forgetting is that all changes are permanent until they are not. We don't make that decision, TJ does. And freezing itself just cries out "you have to commit this to yourself". If you don't want something frozen, don't freeze it, but instead of trying to make older dragons that were frozen into a solution, you could just... y'know, breed more rares and uncommons if that's what you wanted; get an effort together to do that instead of sidestepping the issue of effort as a one-quick-fix for everyone.

 

 

And uh, how's the ratio argument going for you guys? Because if hundreds of dragons on a lot of scrolls are unfrozen and the rares grow up, there go the ratios, especially since I believe they reset recently. Can you imagine the years of not a single CB metal to be had? I know I can, because it's happened. Making them unbreedable stems fro them idea that they don't screw up the ratios any more than they need to by growing up.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Ashes The Second

[LibbyLishly]

If you don't want something frozen, don't freeze it, but instead of trying to make older dragons that were frozen into a solution, you could just... y'know, breed more rares and uncommons if that's what you wanted; get an effort together to do that instead of sidestepping the issue of effort as a one-quick-fix for everyone.

 

 

And uh, how's the ratio argument going for you guys? Because if hundreds of dragons on a lot of scrolls are unfrozen and the rares grow up, there go the ratios, especially since I believe they reset recently. Can you imagine the years of not a single CB metal to be had? I know I can, because it's happened. Making them unbreedable stems fro them idea that they don't screw up the ratios any more than they need to by growing up.

There ARE efforts on the forum for breeding rares and giving them to those who have none. That's clearly not the goal here.

 

In regard to the ratios: I figure TJ can pretty much handle that himself. It's not like he's actually told us the formula he uses for ratios; he's the only one who knows how they actually work, so it won't exactly help for us to worry about it. If he decides to implement this, I'm quite sure he'd take ratios into account. In any case, my understanding is that the ratios apply to egg generation, not to existing hatchlings.

 

@Thuban: As a 'newer player' (okay, since 2011) who had no opportunity to catch CB Frills, Old Pinks, Hollies, Yulebucks, Snow Angels, Ribbon Dancers, Pumpkins, Marrows, 09 Valentines, Sweetlings, or Rosebuds, I do see this suggestion as helping me indirectly. Why? Because I love 2nd gens. I know I'll never get a CB of these breeds - heck, I'll never get any of the first two. But I am quite happy to get the lowest generation I possibly can of them, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that. More CBs in the mating pool, all owned by active users, is a highly desirable outcome for me. So no, I don't think that seeing this as potentially benefiting new players is a 'joke' at all.

[kooky112]

There ARE efforts on the forum for breeding rares and giving them to those who have none. That's clearly not the goal here.

 

In regard to the ratios: I figure TJ can pretty much handle that himself. It's not like he's actually told us the formula he uses for ratios; he's the only one who knows how they actually work, so it won't exactly help for us to worry about it. If he decides to implement this, I'm quite sure he'd take ratios into account. In any case, my understanding is that the ratios apply to egg generation, not to existing hatchlings.

 

@Thuban: As a 'newer player' (okay, since 2011) who had no opportunity to catch CB Frills, Old Pinks, Hollies, Yulebucks, Snow Angels, Ribbon Dancers, Pumpkins, Marrows, 09 Valentines, Sweetlings, or Rosebuds, I do see this suggestion as helping me indirectly. Why? Because I love 2nd gens. I know I'll never get a CB of these breeds - heck, I'll never get any of the first two. But I am quite happy to get the lowest generation I possibly can of them, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that. More CBs in the mating pool, all owned by active users, is a highly desirable outcome for me. So no, I don't think that seeing this as potentially benefiting new players is a 'joke' at all.

Well said Libby

 

I still say that the unfrozen hatchlings should be allowed to be traded, ONLY if it's a CB for another CB. I have a friend who is a programmer who easil pointed out that there are codes that can track such a thing.

 

So what if, since the hatchling was frozen, a date is put on it for 'unfrozen on:'? Would that make people here happier? I'm sure lots of people would love to see that too especially if there are the low low gens and such.

 

I also saw the whole thing on the BSA for sands of time. What about the moonstone dragons? Those could be used.

Edited January 6, 2014 by kooky112