Unfreezing

[olympe]

Not in the short run, no. But in the long run - yes. By freezing hatchlings as soon as they are hatched and unfreezing them at convenience, you do get another adult without having to raise it. That feels like cheating to me, to be quite frank.

[LibbyLishly]

Updated and restructured the first post. If I missed something significant, please poke me about it.

[RainDear]

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

There are many players who made a decision based on things the way that they were at the time, that they wouldn't have made if they could see the future. That is no real reason to give them an undo button.

 

When names couldn't be changed some people gave a male (or female) dragon a name meant for a female (or male) dragon. At the time the only steps available were to live with the error, or kill/release the misnamed dragon to give the name to one of the proper gender. Now names can be changed- should we unkill/unrelease those dragons so we can rename them?? I really don't think so.

 

When we make any decision in life or in games, we know that in future things can change. That doesn't mean we should be able to have things changed for our convenience.

 

This has been compared to an illness that was once incurable but is now curable, but it is not an illness. It is a decision that one made but is now inconvenient so some want to unmake the decision and not have to accept the consequence of the decision.

 

I am against this. It isn't a big deal to me one way or the other, but it does set a precedent that I am uncomfortable with.

[HeatherMarie]

It is a decision that one made but is now inconvenient so some want to unmake the decision and not have to accept the consequence of the decision.

 

I am against this. It isn't a big deal to me one way or the other, but it does set a precedent that I am uncomfortable with.

I'm sorry, but the precedent was set long ago. Games change. That's just the way it goes. We used to be unable to rename dragons, and a lot of us were stuck with dragons who's name really didn't fit their breed (or in my case, silly names that my 6-year-old neighbor made up). But things *changed*, and the entire action of naming was different. We could rename. We could delete names. Our dragons were no longer stuck with that first name for life. That's a pretty big change.

 

We used to only get 2 holidays, and every single year people would complain, or get annoyed, or not know and wonder why that 3rd egg got booted, etc. But it was part of the game and we lived with it for years. And then it changed, and now people can make *armies* of a holiday species if they wish.

 

If you are uncomfortable with the idea that something previously irreversible could become reversible, well, it's already happened. A lot. And it will happen again. Because games change.

 

As for "not accepting consequences", there have already been outlined MANY limits on this unfreezing suggestion, so it's not like people will be able to just go around undoing their decisions willy-nilly. There will be strict limits, cooldowns, requirements, etc etc. Unfreezing, imo, will be more trouble then it's worth for anyone except the most dedicated players. I certainly don't see ALL these restrictions as "not accepting consequences".

[Syphoneira]

...  This is the short version of what I've personally been suggesting, which simply and straightforwardly - without added complexity or penalties including death - addresses the actual issue of long-Frozen dragons people have kept as hatchies because of different circumstances:

 

 

Say, as an example, the White dragon has a Heal BSA which can Heal a Sick hatchie or egg, which can also, when applied to a Frozen, (although no more often than once a month,) Heal a hatchy which, after a year or more of being bespelled into perpetual youth, no longer wishes to be magically forever young.

 

The Healed hatchy becomes an adult instantly and cannot be traded.

 

The counter-spell to the Freeze spell is very powerful, and requires a month for the combined power of even multiple Whites on a scroll (although a single one can do it) to regenerate to the point where the spell could be again passed, should it be required.

 

 

 

Once a month, per scroll, one carefully selected dragon with a youth spell applied in a year previous to the current year, can have that spell lifted to become instantly adult, using one effective spell cast by any and all Whites (or whichever magical dragon) on the scroll with no ill effects - but far too paced to give any great advantage or ability to cheat to any person wishing to use it on any older dragon they would not have Frozen if they'd known circumstances would change as they have.

 

 

Bringing this forward, because we need a simple suggestion that can't be abused - without forgetting the reason that an ability to unFreeze older dragons was suggested and supported in the first place.

[TJ09]

For what it's worth, I'm mostly indifferent on this as long as it can't be "abused" (i.e. used to obtain adults faster than raising them normally) and generally behaves in an intuitive manner.

 

I'm thus not quite sold on the idea of unfrozen adults taking up an egg slot as compensation. It makes sense in theory, but I don't buy the RP reasoning, and it's definitely not visible to people (it's not clear from looking at your scroll that you actually have six slots used even though you have five eggs)--just like the 24-hour deathlock that the idea was based on, which already causes its fair share of confusion.

[DarkEternity]

Several things:

- Well wouldn't this make more sense?

e.g. Freeze a Snow Angel hatchling. Unfreeze Snow Angel hatchling - it is credited with a time penalty. e.g. It has ten days added to it during which it counts towards hatchling limits: RP sense - it needs time to wake from hibernation before it can grow up. The hatchling cannot be refrozen.

That way, it visibly looks like a regular hatchling and behaves like a regular hatchling - less confusion than the 24 hour death penalty.

 

Only thing is, this is probably going to be abused significantly to store trading fodder for periods of time so they don't count to scroll limits.

Edited January 3, 2014 by DarkEternity

[TJ09]

I guess that works, though it creates more complication than simply thinking of un-freezing as transforming a frozen hatchling into an adult (rather than actually unfreezing).

 

Especially since you have to start bringing in more restrictions (like preventing such hatchlings from being traded or abandoned, etc).

[Renorei]

The only restriction I think is really necessary on unfreezing is something that stops people from freezing a hatchling and then immediately unfreezing for an instant adult. I don't really see how it would hurt anything if a few users froze some hatchlings and then unfroze them later for trades? The only time I could see this being a bad thing was if someone unfroze a holiday hatchling in July and traded it, but, that's not likely to happen often. I actually think it would be helpful if users could freeze hatchlings and trade them later on. Most users can't catch multiple CB metals within the span of a few days, so for such users it might be useful if they could catch several over a year or so and then trade them all for something like a 2nd gen holly or 2nd gen prize, for instance.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Renorei

[DarkEternity]

It doesn't hurt, but I'm saying that it is part of how I think it would be exploited.

 

(well actually for me, I was HOPING for that facility because it sounds absolutely desperate, but I've never gotten a CB Snow Angel and I really, really want one... But I won't deny that it would be used/abused/exploited etc.)

 

Though it could impact trades in strange ways.

 

For example: you know how some people make trades of hatchlings -> eggs in order to have those things to trade around for a long period of time? (That, by the way, is how you can gather up an army of CB metals for trading. Trade hatchlings for eggs, rinse and repeat). If more people are able to gather up an army of things, people could end up demanding more and people would be able to fulfill thusly. But then again, we're not INCREASING THE NET OUTPUT in any way, so would that really change anything?

 

That's the only negative I can think of. I guess it's up to you if people object to frills and bright pinks and snow angels being trade fodder. (*is shot*)

 

However, to counter this point, it would really help people who were gifting (the fact you can put the gift into stasis for the recipient and it won't just grow up while you're gifting. You can unfreeze and gift at leisure.) It would also solve the previous suggestion of a 'hibernation cave' for storing dragons at leisure.

 

Well, that's it from me.

 

(Oh, but have we discussed the possibility of multiaccounters trading CB holidays from previous years to their main account? It depends I think upon whether CBs are actually limited to two or if all the holiday dragons are limited to two and then that limit is lifted later)

 

(Oops, I accidentally deleted it. So here it is again)

 

EDIT: it might negatively affect newbies, though, because I assume we'd amass armies of frozends for trade and they wouldn't be able to access an army in due time

Edited January 3, 2014 by DarkEternity

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The only restriction I think is really necessary on unfreezing is something that stops people from freezing a hatchling and then immediately unfreezing for an instant adult. I don't really see how it would hurt anything if a few users froze some hatchlings and then unfroze them later for trades? The only time I could see this being a bad thing was if someone unfroze a holiday hatchling in July and traded it, but, that's not likely to happen often. I actually think it would be helpful if users could freeze hatchlings and trade them later on. Most users can't catch multiple CB metals within the span of a few days, so for such users it might be useful if they could catch several over a year or so and then trade them all for something like a 2nd gen holly or 2nd gen prize, for instance.

The main issue is how much certain things could control the trade market. Imagine people charging obscene prices for unfrozen Frills, Old Pinks, and past CB Holidays...

[DarkEternity]

The main issue is how much certain things could control the trade market. Imagine people charging obscene prices for unfrozen Frills, Old Pinks, and past CB Holidays...

But then again, it does feel kinda sad that unfrozen dragons are tied to the owner's accounts.

'Obscene', I think, will not even describe the prices. Then again, I highly doubt any owner will trade those unfrozen dragons.

 

Would you? You can never get them again.

 

The currency for trades would be unobtainables I think - not CB metals. Except unlike CB prizes, their offspring would be worth very little, so they'd be little more than a hideously expensive scroll decoration. (well there are uses, but comparatively little)

 

This suggestion is kind of comparable to the suggestion to trade Adult dragons.

Edited January 3, 2014 by DarkEternity

[Nakuru]

The main issue is how much certain things could control the trade market. Imagine people charging obscene prices for unfrozen Frills, Old Pinks, and past CB Holidays...

There's always the option of making unfrozen hatchlings un-tradable and un-abandonable, so they would have to stay in the scroll they're and won't cause any issue to the trade market.

[Satomi]

I sort of see it either way and could be indifferent. Obviously, there's concern about abuse, but there are some really good suggestions in the first post. I could see most of them being implemented in one way or another. I definitely agree that they stay on your scroll.

 

I do question having them take up a slot when you unfreeze just for the sake of confusion. I see some ideas that might work, but honestly, imposing restrictions on what it could do after it's imediately an adult, sort of compensates for that in my opinion.

 

I think that the freezing limits would need to be reduced just and/or go longer to when it refreshes. I also wonder if maybe your limits of how many you could freeze/unfreeze could be tied to which badge you have as well?

 

I have frozen most of what I have intentionally for collection sake, but have frozen a cb instead of a line by accident, so I certainly wouldn't mind rectifying that.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

There's always the option of making unfrozen hatchlings un-tradable and un-abandonable, so they would have to stay in the scroll they're and won't cause any issue to the trade market.

I know that, and it's what I support, but the person I was replying to was in favor of letting them be traded.

 

But then again, it does feel kinda sad that unfrozen dragons are tied to the owner's accounts.

'Obscene', I think, will not even describe the prices. Then again, I highly doubt any owner will trade those unfrozen dragons.

 

Would you? You can never get them again.

 

The currency for trades would be unobtainables I think - not CB metals. Except unlike CB prizes, their offspring would be worth very little, so they'd be little more than a hideously expensive scroll decoration. (well there are uses, but comparatively little)

 

This suggestion is kind of comparable to the suggestion to trade Adult dragons.

 

I wouldn't trade them, but even now in the trading threads I see people selling off their only two CB Solstices for high prices, so I'm sure there are people that would do it. And even if they're not much than scroll decorations, you have to realize that to those who want to collect every sprite, they're all but invaluable. Even more than the chaos it would wreck on the market, I think it'd be worse on all the newer players who desperately, desperately wanted a Frill or Old Pink and such and were never able to afford them. Right now there's no way to obtain them at all, and I guess some would argue that's worse, but in other ways I think accepting you can never get them is better than always having them dangling over your head, available and yet impossible to pay for... but I own the dragons in question, so other's views might mean more.

 

I also think, on the same note, it could lead to harassment. Someone in this very thread, I believe, mentioned having 40+ frozen Frills. The idea of new players who've run out of options desperately piling on such people begging for one--or even yelling at them for not sharing such things when it's the only way newer players can get one--doesn't seem much of a stretch.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[DarkEternity]

3. Unfreeze action always available but with high success/failure rate (NOT with a chance of death, but potentially with a chance of abandonment)

 

I realise that I am being terrible, but I support this option since there really needs to be some kind of penalty other than - 'never being able to unfreeze'.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I realise that I am being terrible, but I support this option since there really needs to be some kind of penalty other than - 'never being able to unfreeze'.

We've come up with a whole host of limits that should make this unnecessary. Between massive cool down times, possibly having to re-raise the dragon from scratch, and (likely) making them untradeable, I think we have more than enough other ideas for regulations. I'm firmly against any possibility of permanent loss.

Edited January 3, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[beautifuldragon5000]

For me, I often freeze hatchies because I collect codes and funny lineages or like the alt blacks I collected each stage of those hatchies I don't feel like if a person has "buyer's remorse" on freezing a hatchie that the current method of doing things should be changed just to suit them. I feel that things are fine the way they are and should remain the way they are.

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

For me, I often freeze hatchies because I collect codes and funny lineages or like the alt blacks I collected each stage of those hatchies I don't feel like if a person has "buyer's remorse" on freezing a hatchie that the current method of doing things should be changed just to suit them. I feel that things are fine the way they are and should remain the way they are.

The game has a history of allowing flexibility, though, and I think flexibility is a good thing in an ever-changing game. Names were once permanent; rares couldn't breed with rares; up until recently, Christmas dragons were limited to two per scroll. All these things were cases where if you did it once, you were forever stuck--if you named wrong, oh well, if you bred rare x rare, oh well, if you tried to hold a third really nice Holiday and forgot to release one of your others you lost it, oh well. Since those things were all changed to allow for more flexibility, I see no reason it can't be done in this case, too (provided proper anti-exploitation measures are added).

[DarkEternity]

True, but at this point it resembles a 'get out jail free card'.

Right now, almost nothing exists without a penalty apart from incubate.

 

Breeding: if you are scroll locked, you risk auto-APing. Most of the time with rares, it doesn't work.

Summoning: 99% of the time you fail to succeed. Small chance of refusals

Fertility: not a 100% guarantee of an egg

Freezing: things are unfreezable - it is permanent

Teleport: if something is too young or old, it can't be teleported

Abandoning: hatchling might refuse to leave

Kill: Dragons can dodge, get killed or hatch. Lose an egg spot if it dies

Earthquake: Dragons can be unaffected, killed, hatched or abandoned

Bite: Dragons can be killed, unaffected or repulsed

Catching/stealing: You can react too late, or fail to get the egg because of overburdening.

Influencing: Small chance of failure

Revive: large chance of failure

 

That, I think, is what TJ means by

I happen to believe not--there will almost certainly always be cases where an action is performed that the user later regrets, and while good software usability might dictate that users should be able to undo their changes as much as possible, the concept of making mistakes is a fundamental part of games that, when removed, takes away from the positive reaction of succeeding.

 

I believe in the concept of a tradeoff. If you want to remove a penalty, there needs to be a penalty replacing it. Now, I understand that the severe penalty of freezing was that you could never unfreeze it.

 

And people react, because:

For me, I often freeze hatchies because I collect codes and funny lineages or like the alt blacks I collected each stage of those hatchies I don't feel like if a person has "buyer's remorse" on freezing a hatchie that the current method of doing things should be changed just to suit them. I feel that things are fine the way they are and should remain the way they are.

 

The point we aren't raising here is that buyers have a chance of returning things to the store.

But is it 100%? No. Not always.

Edited January 3, 2014 by DarkEternity

[beautifuldragon5000]

respectfully I see your point of view, I have been playing this game for a very long time I might be having a get off my lawn moment with this lol but I don't see any reason why it needs to be changed when you have ample opportunity before you freeze something to change your mind. Like on my scroll I type in my password to do any action so how could anyone freeze something on accident which this is what it seems like this is saying.

[Vhale]

I think people need to not shoot down a suggestion out of envy of what people might or might not trade for.

 

However, this is also why having it be an annual event is a good thing.

 

Annual event, if trading is disrupted, it's for about 1 week out of the year. Probably for the first year alone. Given that there is a limit of CB golds, a person will have to take what they can get, or nothing, in that time frame.

 

Personally, I'd still limit it to 5 at most, on top of that. I don't think it's an action people need or want a lot of. 5 is likely, more than plenty.

[DarkEternity]

I understand if we are a teensy bit reluctant after what happened to the trading system with CB prize offspring. 6_9

 

And Vhale, you do raise a good point.

[beautifuldragon5000]

Now I am not dismissing this out of hand but I honestly don't see any good reason to change this, most people who have been playing as long as I have, we have seen many improvements to the site. Teleport for example a lot of people, myself included, were resistant to this idea because we thought it wouldn't make an improvement to the game we all know and love. But teleport was a good decision on TJ's part but I don't honestly see how this being added to the site would improve the state of the way the game is played. Maybe I am wrong and this would be a great addition to the game, but currently I don't see how it would be.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

respectfully I see your point of view, I have been playing this game for a very long time I might be having a get off my lawn moment with this lol but I don't see any reason why it needs to be changed when you have ample opportunity before you freeze something to change your mind. Like on my scroll I type in my password to do any action so how could anyone freeze something on accident which this is what it seems like this is saying.

The thing is, the game changes. I didn't regret freezing CB Holidays when I froze them, because at the time, I could only ever have two. As much as I wanted the adults, I wanted the frozen sprite more. I did not regret the choice then, because I knew what I was getting into. Now, however... things have changed, and I do regret it.

 

Similarly, rarities change, viewpoints change, ways of playing the game change. I doubt many people freeze on accident as in "oh shoot, I didn't mean to freeze that," but as the game evolves and changes there are more and more reasons people might want to have adults they once deemed better as hatchlings.

 

As far as usefulness goes: would it not benefit everyone? Nope. But would it benefit some? Yep. Just like things like earthquake, expunge, and even teleport to an extent only benefit certain people. It would be quite nice for those of us who do have some frozens we've come to regret and, if handled properly, wouldn't cause any harm to those who don't.

 

@Vhale: I assure you it's not envy on my end--I have CBs of both discontinued breeds, and I gift CB Metals every now and then--but I do think it'd be rather cruel to say to people "ah yes, you can have a shot at getting a Frill or Old Pink on your scroll, something you never thought was possible--but only if you pay with your soul and your first born child, muahahaha!" I mean, seriously, think of how much 2g Prizes trade for--despite that the sprites can still be obtained in other ways, despite that there's in theory an unlimited number as long as the CB owners keep breeding them, and despite that more are usually won every year--and then think of how nasty the trade market would be for limited-number-forever, only-way-to-get-this-on-your-scroll things, even if there is a far higher starting amount than with CB Prizes. Again, maybe people would like having the chance to get these either way, which is why the opinions of those without any mean more, but for me it seems like it'd be another cruel lottery where only the ridiculously DC-wealthy ever get a shot at them.

 

@DarkEternity: Not having access to that dragon as an adult for months + losing the ability to ever trade it isn't a penalty...?

Edited January 3, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy