ANSWERED:Allow Drakes to breed with standard dragons

[LibbyLishly]

I bring this up because it's something that's bugged me since I joined DC over two years ago. I will quite happily acknowledge that it may be due to something that I completely don't understand about the breeds or the spriter's intent, so please enlighten me as to all of the history that I don't have.

 

In any case, I would like to see the Drakes - Ochredrakes, Day Glory Drakes, and Night Glory Drakes - be able to breed with the other dragons. According to the Wiki, the last Drake was released in 2010; the original Ochredrakes were all the way back in 2009. It's been a long time, and many more 'standard' breeds have been released since then. I would love to be able to use all three gorgeous sprites in all kinds of lineages with those 'standard' dragons.

 

It's not like we don't already have many different 'types' of dragons who can interbreed. A Wyvern can breed with a Lindwurm can breed with a stock-issue dragon, and an Alpine breed can mate with a breed from the sea. Even size differences don't make sense in this regard - a Drake might be dog-sized, but a Mint is considered quite, quite small (as indicated by their description) and it can still breed with the gargantuan breeds. Pygmies make sense to keep separate, as do (in a way) Two-Headed dragons, but the segregation of the Drake has always puzzled me.

 

If this suggestion is implemented, any new species of Drakes that are in the Completed Requests could also then mate with the spectrum of dragons, rather than being relegated to just a few potential mates (and just a few potential lineage patterns). Certain parts of the dragon descriptions would have to change. Otherwise, I really don't know what all the ramifications could be, which is why I brought it to the Suggestions thread to be hashed out.

 

I admit that I propose this change for purely selfish reasons, as I really just want to be able to see the pretty Drakes in lineages with my Tsunamis and other shiny breeds. In addition, while I believe Glory Drakes are still uncommon enough to not be blockers, Ochredrakes can be, both in the cave and in the AP, and this could potentially help them to become significantly more popular.

 

Probably the most important people to weigh in on this would be Earthgirl, who did the amazing sprite work on the Glory Drakes, and Shiro Shitoro and Dovealove, who created the lovely Ochredrake (I don't think either of the latter two are still active, though - Shiro last posted in 2012, Dovealove in 2010).

 

Note: Before posting, I did a search for every topic in this section that contained "Drake". For any suggestion that turned out to be drake-specific, I only found this suggestion regarding egg sizes and this suggestion to change the name of the Drake varieties to something more DC-oriented rather than a general word that's tossed about to mean anything from male dragon to adolescent dragon. Neither seemed to have any bearing on this suggestion.

 

~Adding because I merged~

 

Note that I'm not closing this original thread because it has lots of important discussion about drake intelligence and how this affects breeding. I think this discussion is more pertinent than size and do not want it to get lost.

 

PieMaster's post of pros and cons: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=8170046

 

I know what you were probably all thinking when you read the title. "This is never going to happen; Dovealove, the original conceptor of the drakes, never intended for them to be bred with normal dragons." And that is true. Yes, this is likely to get shot down. No, it is not likely going to make it to the Cave, and TJ would possibly be against it. However, I'd like to ask that you hear me out on my reasoning for why I think drakes and regular dragons should be interbreedable.

 

Arguments For:

Argument 1: Lack of Drakes

 

As it stands, there are very few drakes, only being five types over all. This often leads to users devaluing them, as they cannot breed them to many other dragons. That leads to a small amount of drakes being sprited, which ties into my next point. The userbase also seems to dislike new drakes being released, as is evidenced by the April 2014 release; many a user reported their distaste for drakes and dismay at the release of new ones before even seeing the sprites, and others pointed out that they will be undervalued due to their inability to breed with most species of dragons.

 

 

Argument 2: Undesirable to Create

 

Drakes are currently undesirable to create because artists will be knowingly creating something that is limited in breeding possiblities and value; users tend to value drakes as less than other breeds because they can only do so much with them. By allowing users to breed them with regular dragons and having them be a further classification of dragon rather than an entire subspecies that can only breed among itself, users will be able to have more fun with their dragons and be encouraged to create ideas for more. The sprites will be valued for preference in addition to just being unbreedable, save for a select few breeds.

 

Argument 3: Holidays

 

It's very unlikely that there will be a drake (or pygmy) holiday in the foreseeable future*. While it could happen, I don't see it as a huge possibility because their breeding pools are so very limited, and this discourages artists from creating holiday drakes. By allowing drakes to breed with normal dragons, it will open the door for more creativity in holiday concepts, and will encourage a wider variety in holidays breeds.

 

*Pumpkins are not a valid example, as they were not originally intended to be breedable with pygmies; it was a post-release suggestion due to their size (they can fit in pumpkins, so they must be small) and the fact that pygmies had nothing to breed with at the time.

 

Argument 4: More fun

 

Lineages have become a big part of DC, whether or not it was intentional. It adds variety and strategy to an otherwise repetitive game of collecting the same pictures multiple times (Yes, there is more to it, such as names and descriptions, but lineages are a huge driving force for many players to continue to use DC). By allowing drakes to breed with other dragons, it opens the door for more possibilities in lineage building and will thus be more fun; more options equals more ways to build lineages, and gives the sprites more use.

 

Argument 5: Creativity

 

By allowing drakes to breed with regular dragons, it will allow more creativity in dragon concepts--dragons can be smaller, as drakes are supposed to be the size of a large dog. This will allow dragon concepts to be smaller without making them have to have one wing finger and struts, antlers, and other drake characteristics, and also not have to be a small pygmy sprite. Granted, if the breed is supposed to be small small, it would have to be a pygmy, but it would be nice to be able to have smaller dragon concepts.

 

Argument 6: Logic

 

Traditional Wyverns, Amphipteres, Wyverns, Lindwyrms, Easterns, and everything in between are able to breed with each other on Dragon Cave, despite major differences in limb numbers (which would likely mean different numbers of chromosomes) ad other genetic structures. With that in mind, why would a breed with features many other dragons have not be able to breed with most dragons? The "too dumb to do so" argument no longer makes sense to me now that more drakes have been released to accompany the Ochredrake; if they are smart enough to breed with other drakes, they'd have to be smart enough to breed with species outside their own.

 

Arguments Against:

Argument 1: Against Dovealoves Wishes

 

If drakes were allowed to breed with normal dragons, it would be against the drakes' conceptor's original intentions. However, I believe it is TJ's site, and he has a right to change things as he sees fit for the site's best interest.

 

Argument 2: Lessens Uniqueness

 

Although I disagree, it could be argued that allowing drakes to breed with regular dragons lessens drakes' uniqueness because it gets rid of a special quality they have. However, I disagree; it's the drakes' physical features and lesser faculties that distinguish drakes from other dragons.

 

Argument 3: Artists Should Be Consulted

 

If drakes are to be made breedable with other species of dragons, the artists who have on-site drakes will likely need to reach a majority decision on the matter to ensure nobody gets hurt over the matter and prevent any artists from leaving.

 

Other

 

More reasons for and against allowing the interbreeding of drakes and dragons will be added as they are posted in the thread.

 

Moderating Team: All I ask is that this thread be allowed to stay open for discussion purposes, even if originally vetoed, to allow the userbase to provide further input on the matter and see if it has a wide variety of support.

 

Poll likely to come soon.

 

Thoughts?

Edited April 10, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[olympe]

The segregation of the drakes has a very simple (RP-) reason: While dragons have an incredible intellect, drakes are about as "bright" as a dog. They can be trained, but that's all. Mating a dragon with a drake would be worse (from the dragon's POV) than a human mating with an ape.

[Pokemonfan13]

Olympe pretty much hit the nail on the head. Yes, we need more drakes. So if you want pretty drake lineages, go ask TJ to release some drakes. x3

[dragonpuck]

I think it's possible that TJ will release some more drakes in the not too distant future . The original Split was a VEEEERY long time alone and now there are 4 more.

So I don't really think cross breeding is necessary.

 

[Nectaris]

Olympe pretty much hit the nail on the head. Yes, we need more drakes. So if you want pretty drake lineages, go ask TJ to release some drakes. x3

^This. Also, creating new drake suggestions helps. The most selection TJ has the more likely he will choose one of them.

[Marrionetta]

I would like to address the point that the mints are small - they're the size of a VW Beetle according to Shikaru. Still much larger than a drake.

[Pokemonfan13]

I still protest the VW Beetle size for mints. It really doesn't make any sense, and it doesn't match with what other spriters feel their dragon's size is. Because if mints are much smaller than other dragons, other dragons would have to be at a minimum the size of an elephant. So no tree dwelling dragons at all. And since they double in size when they're mature, their egg would have to be roughly half the size of a VW Beetle...

 

 

To make sense mints would have to be more in the line of pygmies size wise, and if DC was made today with all the dragons we currently have they probably would be pygmies. The problem is that once pygmies were made mints have been breeding with regular dragons for a long time, and it wouldn't make sense to suddenly switch them over.

 

"They also have no ways to attack others or defend themselves."

Something the size of a VW Beetle has sheer bulk to attack with.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[HeatherMarie]

The segregation of the drakes has a very simple (RP-) reason: While dragons have an incredible intellect, drakes are about as "bright" as a dog. They can be trained, but that's all. Mating a dragon with a drake would be worse (from the dragon's POV) than a human mating with an ape.

Very much agree with this.

 

As far as size, we have it confirmed from Earthgirl that at least the Night Glory Drakes are "a very small breed, only the size of a kitten". I'd very much protest to a breed the size of a KITTEN being "able" to breed with "standard" dragons that are often the size of a house or larger.

[Obscure_Trash]

Because of the limited breeding, I rarely bother with drakes, 2heads, or even pygmies. However, the new(ish) bloodscales are gorgeous and if I could manage to catch them, I'd be building a lineage with them as we speak. =U I don't think cross-breeding is likely at this point (and I'm not sure how I actually feel about it), so I'd definitely want some more drakes released. o3o

[Pokemonfan13]

Drakes are supposed to be a roughly husky-sized breed [it is in the breed description], and from what I understand the normal pygmy is the smallest breed. So the glory drakes the size of a kitten does not work, since then they would be smaller than pygmies.

[Valera]

Pygmies are the best off of the three breed with themselves only families. They have several species and even a holiday species.

 

Two heads don't need any love since they just got some.

 

As for drakes, I agree that they need some love, they really need it the most since considering the two headed release, they have the smallest number of species with three, counting both species of glories. A release of two to three new species would be reasonable.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Valera

[Ashes The Second]

Pygmies are the best off of the three breed with themselves only families. They have several species and even a holiday species.

 

Two heads don't need any love since they just got some.

 

As for drakes, I agree that they need some love, they really need it the most since considering the two headed release, they have the smallest number of species with three, counting both species of glories. A release of two to three new species would be reasonable.

Then suggest that? If the shoe fits, wear it.

[LibbyLishly]

The segregation of the drakes has a very simple (RP-) reason: While dragons have an incredible intellect, drakes are about as "bright" as a dog. They can be trained, but that's all. Mating a dragon with a drake would be worse (from the dragon's POV) than a human mating with an ape.

Yeah, okay, the intelligence argument makes sense - much more so than any regarding size (I very much agree with Pokemonfan13 on all of the size arguments). While I could still point out human couples with frighteningly vast disparities in intellect, I can mostly accept it as reasonable. Still a bummer, as I've been picturing how Day Glories and Black-Capped Teimarrs would look in a lineage!

 

So then. In lieu of a spriter unexpectedly hopping in here and saying that the intelligence difference isn't THAT huge and that they would support interbreeding, LOTS more love for the Drakes in future releases!

[Pixxelation]

EDIT: Note that this was originally the first post of its own thread, and thus why it is written as such. Please disregard that c: Thanks!

 

Introduction

I know what you were probably all thinking when you read the title. "This is never going to happen; Dovealove, the original conceptor of the drakes, never intended for them to be bred with normal dragons." And that is true. Yes, this is likely to get shot down. No, it is not likely going to make it to the Cave, and TJ would possibly be against it. However, I'd like to ask that you hear me out on my reasoning for why I think drakes and regular dragons should be interbreedable.

 

Arguments For:

Argument 1: Lack of Drakes

 

As it stands, there are very few drakes, only being five types over all. This often leads to users devaluing them, as they cannot breed them to many other dragons. That leads to a small amount of drakes being sprited, which ties into my next point. The userbase also seems to dislike new drakes being released, as is evidenced by the April 2014 release; many a user reported their distaste for drakes and dismay at the release of new ones before even seeing the sprites, and others pointed out that they will be undervalued due to their inability to breed with most species of dragons.

 

 

Argument 2: Undesirable to Create

 

Drakes are currently undesirable to create because artists will be knowingly creating something that is limited in breeding possiblities and value; users tend to value drakes as less than other breeds because they can only do so much with them. By allowing users to breed them with regular dragons and having them be a further classification of dragon rather than an entire subspecies that can only breed among itself, users will be able to have more fun with their dragons and be encouraged to create ideas for more. The sprites will be valued for preference in addition to just being unbreedable, save for a select few breeds.

 

Argument 3: Holidays

 

It's very unlikely that there will be a drake (or pygmy) holiday in the foreseeable future*. While it could happen, I don't see it as a huge possibility because their breeding pools are so very limited, and this discourages artists from creating holiday drakes. By allowing drakes to breed with normal dragons, it will open the door for more creativity in holiday concepts, and will encourage a wider variety in holidays breeds.

 

*Pumpkins are not a valid example, as they were not originally intended to be breedable with pygmies; it was a post-release suggestion due to their size (they can fit in pumpkins, so they must be small) and the fact that pygmies had nothing to breed with at the time.

 

Argument 4: More fun

 

Lineages have become a big part of DC, whether or not it was intentional. It adds variety and strategy to an otherwise repetitive game of collecting the same pictures multiple times (Yes, there is more to it, such as names and descriptions, but lineages are a huge driving force for many players to continue to use DC). By allowing drakes to breed with other dragons, it opens the door for more possibilities in lineage building and will thus be more fun; more options equals more ways to build lineages, and gives the sprites more use.

 

Argument 5: Creativity

 

By allowing drakes to breed with regular dragons, it will allow more creativity in dragon concepts--dragons can be smaller, as drakes are supposed to be the size of a large dog. This will allow dragon concepts to be smaller without making them have to have one wing finger and struts, antlers, and other drake characteristics, and also not have to be a small pygmy sprite. Granted, if the breed is supposed to be small small, it would have to be a pygmy, but it would be nice to be able to have smaller dragon concepts.

 

Argument 6: Logic

 

Traditional Wyverns, Amphipteres, Wyverns, Lindwyrms, Easterns, and everything in between are able to breed with each other on Dragon Cave, despite major differences in limb numbers (which would likely mean different numbers of chromosomes) ad other genetic structures. With that in mind, why would a breed with features many other dragons have not be able to breed with most dragons? The "too dumb to do so" argument no longer makes sense to me now that more drakes have been released to accompany the Ochredrake; if they are smart enough to breed with other drakes, they'd have to be smart enough to breed with species outside their own. In addition, other dragons have very large size differences; Sweetlings are supposed to be very small, not much bigger than pygmies to my understanding, and Stones are said to be as big as mountains. They can interbreed, so drakes should be able to as well.

 

 

 

Arguments Against:

Argument 1: Against Dovealoves Wishes

 

If drakes were allowed to breed with normal dragons, it would be against the drakes' conceptor's original intentions. However, I believe it is TJ's site, and he has a right to change things as he sees fit for the site's best interest.

 

Argument 2: Lessens Uniqueness

 

Although I disagree, it could be argued that allowing drakes to breed with regular dragons lessens drakes' uniqueness because it gets rid of a special quality they have. However, I disagree; it's the drakes' physical features and lesser faculties that distinguish drakes from other dragons.

 

Argument 3: Artists Should Be Consulted

 

If drakes are to be made breedable with other species of dragons, the artists who have on-site drakes will likely need to reach a majority decision on the matter to ensure nobody gets hurt over the matter and prevent any artists from leaving.

 

Argument 4: Intelligence

 

It has been discussed that drakes and dragons don't interbreed because of societal standards; a dragon breeding with a drake would supposedly be like a human breeding with an ape. However, I disagree completely; there are many dragons not able to perform much magic or even telepathy, and it makes little sense for a slight step down intellectually to be shunned by other dragons.

 

Other

 

More reasons for and against allowing the interbreeding of drakes and dragons will be added as they are posted in the thread.

 

Thoughts?

Edited April 10, 2014 by PieMaster

[Pixxelation]

Reserved, just in case.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

My main reason to dislike "drakes" stems from the name being forced on to a very specific idea made by one user when the title usually refers to a fantasy typical subset of dragons, but I digress.

 

I would like to see them breed with normal dragons for no other reason than because the new ones are so gorgeous, but couldn't this same logic apply to splits?

[kerrikins]

Idk, tbh I like the variety. It's nice to know that we have dragons, splits, pygmies and drakes. That's the way it works in the real world, not all species breed together.

 

If anything changes I hope that the spriters are consulted because some of them may have designed their dragons with 'drake-like' breeding behaviour in mind.

[Pixxelation]

ADP: Yes, it very well could. However, I think Splits are a different case because there having two heads would make much less sense when breeding with single-headed dragons; accepting dragons with different amounts of limbs interbreeding is one thing, but dragons with split spinal chords, independent heads/brains, etc to breed with single-headed ones? That's harder to believe.

 

Kerri: True, but I think it hardly makes sense to have drakes, of all things, be the species unable to breed with the rest, when dragons with different amounts of limbs (not just digits) can interbreed. You have a point with the idea of consulting the spriters. I will go add that to the original post under "Arguements Against"

Edited April 10, 2014 by PieMaster

[Sirithiliel]

Size shouldn't be an issue either. [Look at the sweetlings, they're tiny, and yet can breed with gigantic dragons]

 

I also don't understand why they're limited to breeding amongst themselves when their only classifying features are shared by other dragons in cave. Antlers, single wing fingers, small size, etc. And for that matter, I think having drakes limited to those features is a shame =P

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I don't think it's too big of a stretch. After all, some real snakes and turtles are occasionally born two headed, whereas in the real world you never get such a weird mix of breeding possibilities as on DC. If sunsongs, hellhorses, deep seas, sweetlings, and stone dragons are all in the same group, I see no good reason two heads should be so odd.

[Pixxelation]

Siri: Exactly! I forgot to add that, lol. *runs to add that to Argument 6*

 

ADP: I appreciate your ideas, but I think that's a matter for another thread. It's probably for the best that the two ideas remain separate at the moment. I have my reasons against two-headed dragons being interbred with single-head dragons, but I think they would clutter this thread :3

 

EDIT: Aaaaand spontaneous merge D:

Edited April 10, 2014 by PieMaster

[edwardelricfreak]

I'm going to say no.

 

It would help if more drakes get released. I see drakes in Completed and also some more being worked on.

 

If people would suggest more drakes, then it would help.

 

I like them being a separate species. Some say they're "unpopular", but that's because of how few we have, and we have so few because people don't want to make them because they're limited.

 

It's a self-propagating loop. If people ACTUALLY made more drake ideas, we'd pick up speed and see more being released and more made as a result.

 

I'm seeing more two-heads here and there since we started getting more, and pygmies have become a lot more popular in DR, too.

[Pixxelation]

Yes, but I still think it makes little-to-no logical sense anatomically and RP-wise.

[edwardelricfreak]

Drakes aren't dragons. They're similar-looking reptiles. That's like breeding animals that look similar but aren't directly related.

 

If anything, if you tried to breed a drake and regular dragon, you'd have something like a mule that's infertile. Or even a tiger and lion (I think a few specimens were shown to be fertile, but it's only a few).

[MysticTiger]

Drakes aren't dragons. They're similar-looking reptiles. That's like breeding animals that look similar but aren't directly related.

 

If anything, if you tried to breed a drake and regular dragon, you'd have something like a mule that's infertile. Or even a tiger and lion (I think a few specimens were shown to be fertile, but it's only a few).

You can't really use that argument here, though. Because if the Drake and the Dragon was intended to be different species, why do they both have the same "Dragons are creatures with nearly unlimited life spans...., ect" information on their pages? If they were truly different, wouldn't there be different information? And even further, if you bred a dragon with wings and one without, wouldn't you end up having a genetic problem that may result in a dragon without wings when it should have one? Or deformed wings? And if you continually bred a species of dragon that started from a CB one, you would eventually end up with a different looking "domesticated" version, much like the Siberian Fox. You can't really apply real world genetics to this at all.

 

Also, I don't believe Dovealove can be given all ownership over an entire SPECIES of dragons on this site. Does she own every dragon that is created as a Drake? I don't think all the spriters would agree. It just seems like TJ should have the final say on this matter. After all, this is his site with his rules. Although I don't think he has any artist sign any sort of release agreement, he still should hold the final say regardless.

 

I vote yes. I'm all for creating new and exciting lineages. I don't really collect Drakes (or two-headed or pygmies) because of their lack of lineage possibilities. Allowing them to breed with other dragons not only opens up new lineage lines/projects, but new possibilities for breed-only species.

Edited April 10, 2014 by MysticTiger