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Differentiate between Draks and Drakes

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But please if the drake definition is to be relaxed, make it drake style wings or no wings. Not some general definition that would let people use any kind of wings they want.

I don't agree with that. I think, if we're keeping some mind of requirement for drakes, it should be all of the previou ones for a SPECIFIC sub-type of drake, and no specific wing requirements for other drakes. Or abolish any very specific body type requirements--including wing type.

 

So basically either abolish any really restricting conditions such as specific wing type or allow for Dove's Drakes to exist as a subtype of drake.

 

Let's add the firedrakes from Dragonriders of Pern, shall we? (For those who don't know, the firedrakes there are smaller and less intelligent version of the dragons the dragonriders ride, and have wings as well as flying ability just as the "real" dragons. As a matter of fact, the dragons there are genetically enhanced firedrakes.)

I thought they were called firelizards? I don't recall seeing them called firedrakes...

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Considering the term drake is already taken perhaps it would be easier to just give your own creations a different term rather than trying to take it from the existing holder.

Have to say that while I think the relaxing of the definition some is a good compromise, I agree with the above.

 

This actually isn't an issue about anyone's concept of Drakes - not Dove's or people submitting dragon ideas. This is an issue about using the word "drake" in a dragon's breed name. Because:

 

A. Let's face it, telling someone to change their entire concept of the Something-or-other Drake they suggested is beyond bizarre instead of people concerned with DC cannon just saying "We actually have a DC 'verse specific Drake, so this dragon may need a name change". Seriously, if people are actually showing up and suggesting that folks change all of the concept, art, description, etc. because the word Drake is used instead of just suggesting not using that word, maybe someone should very gently be pointing out that they're being ridiculous and vastly complicating an incredibly simple matter - although a lot nicer than that. xd.png

 

B. There appear to already be some of what people are calling "traditional Drakes" in the cave now, so no one is stopping them from being created, submitted, and released.

 

 

And the fact is that this thread has demonstrated that there is no consensus on what a Drake is, and so any set of standards that we have will end up being DC specific and not in keeping with someone's idea of a "true" Drake. So all we're doing here is switching up what is going to continue to be a DC unique, not everyone approved, version of the Drake.

 

Like I said, I think the definition expansion is a good compromise, but this really does, at the end of it all, just seem like very little to do with actual concepts (since all definitions seem to already have in-cave representation) and more with "I like the word Drake and want to use it in a name". Which isn't something bad by any means, but I don't think it involves things on the scale of limiting artistic creativity and freedom or DC having some kind of fractured cannon.

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I thought they were called firelizards?  I don't recall seeing them called firedrakes...

The indigenous creatures were definitely fire-lizards. Pern dragons were fire-lizards genetically modified for size and intelligence, and watch-whers were the failed attempts of Kitti Ping to smooth the faceted eye, resulting in eyes that hyperfocused light, which was retconned later to heat vision. The lack of controlled breeding coupled with generations of abuse toward watch-whers led to the near-degeneration of the wings (resulting in a creature that could was only capable of very low-altitude flight and only at night), and a heightened sense of smell as they were used as the equivalent of canaries in firestone and coal mines, as well as guard dogs. All three are capable of going between.

 

But yeah, the term "drake" was never used on Pern. The serpentine six-limbed digging creatures were tunnel-snakes, though.

Edited by Lythiaren

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This seems silly. I get that there's a problem with being able to say "oh this is a drake" without people going "It doesn't look like a drake tho?" but that doesn't really seem like that big of a deal, when you're essentially creating a dragon. Yeah, they're dumber wingless dragons, but you can just mention in the description features that would classify them as a traditional drake. There's nothing stopping you there.

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That doesn't work because of the claim here that the "traditional" drakes are wingless.

 

So you can't have ochredrakes as winged, no opposable thumbs, and antlers, yet say drakes are wingless.

 

Of course, I have found no evidence that "traditional drakes" are wingless, despite multiple claims in this thread. Trying to look it up myself, all I can find is more evidence that drake is not standardized in any way (and thus doesn't make sense to clear up the name for a specific wingless species).

 

• For example, I found that in MTG, drakes are actually wyverns (two-legged winged dragon-relatives), and the term "wyvern" doesn't exist there.

• Dragon Age has an interesting usage, as well. In their universe, it appears that females grow up to be dragons, while males (called drakes) are lesser beings that simply defend the female (and fight for the right to breed).

• I also found a thread that says that "Drakes share the same build as dragons, except they always have wings," which is the exact opposite of the label as people are trying to use here.

• And then, I saw the definition, "Drake: A younger dragon."

 

What I have not found in any of my searching is a definition that states that drakes must be wingless.

 

I am fine with relaxing the definition of drake to be more flexible (perhaps just leaving it as a smaller, less intelligent cousin species).

If I may just add something to this TJ...

 

My first encounter with anything called a "Drake" was back in 2006 with "Fantus" the "Firedrake" from the books by Raymond E. Feist, then later on with the start of a Graphic Novel adaptation of the first book. In both the original novel and the graphic novel, it describes him as a "cousin of Dragons."

In the graphic novel it shows the "Firedrake" as being a small, about cat-size, green dragon with red eyes, and some tiny frill-like appendages on his head. He has 4 legs, each with 5 fingers, and his wings have what looks like a 1 small nail or finger on the end of them.

 

I realize that depending on the artwork, it differs, but the fact remains, I first understood a drake as meaning a small cousin of a dragon, with wings and four legs. *shrug*

 

I have seen the wingless dragons called drakes too, but to me, it just depends on whose defining the dragon breed itself; heck, even a real life male duck is called a "Drake," and ducks last I checked, had wings.

Personally, I like to think of drakes as the smaller cousins of dragon. Yet, this is just my opinion.

 

So, I would think as long as there is some leniency on the term "Drake" overall, and that there is no one specific definition, since everyone will have their own thoughts and opinions on it, based on different fandoms or universes they follow, it might help to resolve this troubling confusion. At least, I would hope. unsure.gif

 

In short, I agree with your thoughts about a drake being "a smaller, less intelligent cousin species."

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Personally, I like to think of drakes as the smaller cousins of dragon. Yet, this is just my opinion.

 

So, I would think as long as there is some leniency on the term "Drake" overall, and that there is no one specific definition, since everyone will have their own thoughts and opinions on it, based on different fandoms or universes they follow, it might help to resolve this troubling confusion. At least, I would hope. unsure.gif

 

In short, I agree with your thoughts about a drake being "a smaller, less intelligent cousin species."

^This

 

I'm totally against the pseudo-division through new spelling .

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I have seen the wingless dragons called drakes too, but to me, it just depends on whose defining the dragon breed itself; heck, even a real life male duck is called a "Drake," and ducks last I checked, had wings.

Personally, I like to think of drakes as the smaller cousins of dragon. Yet, this is just my opinion.

 

Total agreement. As long as we go with this "smaller, less intelligent dragons" of any kind, we shouldn't run into any trouble. People want to make a wingless drake? Fine. A six-legged drake? A duck-like drake? wink.gif Why not? Personally, I'm not too fond of the rather narrow definition of a DC-drake, anyway. Opening it up might be a good thing.

 

 

However, I feel that we should have something to discern drakes from pygmies. Most pygmies - with the exception of pumpkins so far - have tiny eggs. Maybe we could change that? (Or maybe... we could have normal-sized egg sprites for all breeds in the AP, but they show in their respective intended size on the view and lineage pages? Just thinking out loud. Clicking pygmy-sized pumpkin eggs on Halloween might be a bit of a hassle, as it is with other pygmy-sized eggs, so having all eggs be the same size on the AP only would help with that. However, on the view page it does make sense to give all of them, even pumpkins, a pygmy-sized egg... /off-topic rambling) Maybe drakes, being smaller than normal dragons but bigger than pygmies, could have an egg with a size somewhere between pygmy-size and normal size? 20 height x 22 width would work out quite well for an intermediate.

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I have not read every single post but i get the idea the traditional use of drake a drake is a male duck so as TJ said DC goes by its own ways (or something with that meaning) why not just make drakes male dragons no its not a very good idea because what would we call the drakes we have now? So my second idea is to find the traditional use of drake in mythological terms not Dragon age not Dungeons and Dragons (I don't know why you would "trust" that its basically fantasy Monoply or Candyland) and use that for the real drakes are given to the actual drakes and the others are renamed. Or I agree with "People want to make a wingless drake? Fine. A six-legged drake? A duck-like drake?"

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It's because of these definitions that people think it's necessary to convince people in a dragon request thread to change the name of their dragon. I've seen this done before and it irritates me. Let people use the names they want for dragons, leave drakes as drakes. It's just a word used on DC. Leave the dragon names alone and leave people alone who do not want to conform to another person's idea of what X dragon is.

This. Drake gets used in place of dragon in lots of places, for dragons with wings, without, for male dragons, etc. IMO anything can be named X Drake, but if you want it to go in Dove's subcategory you'd have to follow Dove's rules. If you don't, you don't. But having the word drake restricted is incredibly annoying.

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I don't really care that much about the rules. The Day Glories, which make up 4/5 of Drake sprites, don't have those characteristics.

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Since the April Drake release seemed to have caused quite the confusion about them being DC Drakes (that's how they're named on the wiki) or traditional Drakes, I'm reactivating this topic.

I know that TJ only announces Drakes when they're Dove/DC Drakes. But newer user don't know that and get quite confused.

 

There had been the idea to call them "Dove's Drakes", but why not fuse these two words to "Doraks", since some users mentioned that the term Drak is to close to the term Drakes.

 

Would it really be that hard to rename these five breeds? Ochredoraks, Night/Day Glory Doraks, Glaucus Doraks and Howler Doraks doesn't sound that bad and it would finally set them appart from the traditional Drakes. smile.gif Plus it won't cause any confusion anymore and artists/conceptors who have a traditional Drake concept in the dragon request section could finally work and sprite in peace without having to explain that they're not making a Dove/DC Drake. (uhh that sound like users harass the conceptors/spriters, that's not what I want to imply xd.png )

Edited by Nyastara

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The term "doraks" somehow makes my skin crawl I'd much rather see Dove's original term "draks" or another alternative similar to the original. Not that I could come up with one at the moment...

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Does it REALLY matter ? We all know - well, maybe not given all this kerfuffle, but it never occurred to me otherwise, even though I am steeped in dragon books - that "new drakes" in the news thread meant "new dragons that will breed with ochredrakes and glories." Isn't that all we need to know ?

 

But honestly, renaming them Doraks would make them sound undragony, to me... (ooh ninja.gif 'd by olympe. I agree with you olympe !)

Edited by fuzzbucket

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They don't need to be names Doraks, wink.gif I personally can live with every other name that sets them appart from "traditional" drakes.

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Drakos? Drakoves? I agree that doraks sounds rather weird (makes me think of daleks, and I don't even watch that show xd.png)

 

My reason for wanting a name change is summed up nicely by these users:

 

This. Drake gets used in place of dragon in lots of places, for dragons with wings, without, for male dragons, etc. IMO anything can be named X Drake, but if you want it to go in Dove's subcategory you'd have to follow Dove's rules. If you don't, you don't. But having the word drake restricted is incredibly annoying.

 

Plus it won't cause any confusion anymore and artists/conceptors who have a traditional Drake concept in the dragon request section could finally work and sprite in peace without having to explain that they're not making a Dove/DC Drake. (uhh that sound like users harass the conceptors/spriters, that's not what I want to imply xd.png.png )

 

People in DR who make a dragon named "Drake" that isn't a "Dove drake" constantly get asked why it's not a Dove drake, which I find really annoying. Drakes can mean a lot of things to different people (in almost everything I've read they're slightly dumber, smaller, occasionally wingless dragons), so having a typical dragon name sequestered to one user's very specific breed is rather frustrating.

 

Some people have said maybe on DC drakes are just a different sort of thing than usual, but I object to this primarily because all the other "standard" dragons--the wyverns, the amphipteres, the wyrms--behave on DC exactly as they do in most other fantasy. It makes little sense to me why drakes should behave differently, especially when they were originally "draks" instead of drakes to begin with!

 

IDK, it's not really a huge issue but for whatever reason it's been an eternal pet peeve of mine. X___x I think a more novel name would also reduce confusion over what they can and can't breed with--a drake sounds like something that could breed with a wyvern or lung, a "drakove" or whatever sounds far more restricted.

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They don't need to be names Doraks, wink.gif I personally can live with every other name that sets them appart from "traditional" drakes.

I can so very "live with" drakes.

 

After all - if the word also refers to male ducks, stones used for skipping, a fishing fly, a natural or artificial mayfly, a small cannon, and - THIS is interesting: "An obsolete word for dragon" - with no suggestion that it is only one type of dragon - not to mention Sir Francis....

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with no suggestion that it is only one type of dragon

I think this is exactly the problem. Right now, "drake" is being used to refer to an extremely specific single type of dragon, unlike the wider variety of things it can usually refer to. While in a perfect world you'd have "drakes" that follow dove's rules and normal "drakes" (much like no one confuses drake ducks and drake dragons!), on DC that's going to cause a hell of a lot of confusion--"why can these drakes breed together but these can't??"

 

So, the two options are:

- Leave it as-is, and forever restrict any other type of dragon from using the word drake

- Or change the name to something less fantasy typical, confirming their place as a special DC breeding group while freeing up the word drake for wider use

 

Personally I'm in favor of the second option.

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OR just leave it as is, allow other dragons to be called drakes if their creators like, and remember who breeds with what - as we do with pumpkins.

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I just don't get why you think large scale confusion is better than a simple name change. Pumpkins are one very odd, very special breed, so easy to keep track of; if we get to a dozen drakes and a dozen "drake drakes" it's going to be a real pain in the butt, if not for long term players, then for newer ones.

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I just don't get why you think large scale confusion is better than a simple name change. Pumpkins are one very odd, very special breed, so easy to keep track of; if we get to a dozen drakes and a dozen "drake drakes" it's going to be a real pain in the butt, if not for long term players, then for newer ones.

I guess I just feel that players cope pretty well with inconsistency and could cope with other dragons being called drakes in their descriptions, if not in their breed names. Someone already pointed out somewhere that magmas and mints are drakes, for instance...

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I'm not sure I see a need to rename, but then I don't really follow the dragon request forum, either. Can't we just know that if it is called a drake on DC it will only breed with others that are called drakes? Other than the breeding issue I don't see why we need to worry about it.

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Since the April Drake release seemed to have caused quite the confusion about them being DC Drakes (that's how they're named on the wiki) or traditional Drakes, I'm reactivating this topic.

I know that TJ only announces Drakes when they're Dove/DC Drakes. But newer user don't know that and get quite confused.

 

There had been the idea to call them "Dove's Drakes", but why not fuse these two words to "Doraks", since some users mentioned that the term Drak is to close to the term Drakes.

 

Would it really be that hard to rename these five breeds? Ochredoraks, Night/Day Glory Doraks, Glaucus Doraks and Howler Doraks doesn't sound that bad and it would finally set them appart from the traditional Drakes. :) Plus it won't cause any confusion anymore and artists/conceptors who have a traditional Drake concept in the dragon request section could finally work and sprite in peace without having to explain that they're not making a Dove/DC Drake. (uhh that sound like users harass the conceptors/spriters, that's not what I want to imply XD )

Dorak sounds...very unpleasant. :c I'd prefer just "Drak" to that.

 

The issue with this is that there are other "Dove Drakes" both in the cave an in the works that don't fit the Ochredrake description. Ochre means yellow, and is thus fitting for the, well, Ochredrakes, but it doesn't work for the Day Glory/Night Glory Dove's Drakes or the other Dove's Drakes species that are in the works in dragon requests. :E

 

If it can't be Drak due to it looking too much like a typo/too much like Drake, then maybe Dove's Drakes? "Dove's Ochredrakes." "Dove's Night Glory Drakes," etc etc. Could be justified by Dove being the 'discoverer' of the breed and thus attaching her name to all subsequent species of the type, if you want to think it over that deeply. I don't really care what they're called, I just want the Drake/Dove's Drake confusion and conflict to be gone.

I'd actually love to see them all called "Dovedrake" (or Dovedrak, but I prefer the e). Ochre Dovedrake, Day/Night Glory Dovedrake, Glaucus Dovedrake, Howler Dovedrake. I like the term. They're still called "drakes" technically, but it's different than the traditional drakes. C:

 

It's a little long, but at least it's only two syllables. Nothing too crazy.

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The first post about the drakes, from May 15, 2008, calls them the "Single-stripe Ocre Drake." The obvious "Ochre" typo was corrected, but the entire thread in which the Ochres were created (32 pages) does not mention "Drak" once.

 

As I said, Dove only changed to "Drak" when people thought "Drake" couldn't be used, but the original intention is clearly "Drake."

I'm just gonna bump this back up with new discussion starting. ^^

 

Also found this:

That doesn't work because of the claim here that the "traditional" drakes are wingless.

 

So you can't have ochredrakes as winged, no opposable thumbs, and antlers, yet say drakes are wingless.

 

Of course, I have found no evidence that "traditional drakes" are wingless, despite multiple claims in this thread. Trying to look it up myself, all I can find is more evidence that drake is not standardized in any way (and thus doesn't make sense to clear up the name for a specific wingless species).

 

• For example, I found that in MTG, drakes are actually wyverns (two-legged winged dragon-relatives), and the term "wyvern" doesn't exist there.

• Dragon Age has an interesting usage, as well. In their universe, it appears that females grow up to be dragons, while males (called drakes) are lesser beings that simply defend the female (and fight for the right to breed).

• I also found a thread that says that "Drakes share the same build as dragons, except they always have wings," which is the exact opposite of the label as people are trying to use here.

• And then, I saw the definition, "Drake: A younger dragon."

 

What I have not found in any of my searching is a definition that states that drakes must be wingless.

 

I am fine with relaxing the definition of drake to be more flexible (perhaps just leaving it as a smaller, less intelligent cousin species).

 

~

 

Agreed - I don't like Dorak. It just seems kind of unpleasant on the ears. >_o

 

Dovedrake is actually kind of cute, if we absolutely have to change the name.

 

(Personally, I think it'll cause more confusion to suddenly change drake to something else than the confusion of drake being something besides a wingless dragon here, but I guess I also don't see a whole lot of drake discussion, so I'm mostly judging by lack of questions we get on this in Help. I do know there was a bit of confusion in the news topic with people speculating whether they'd be drakes or wingless dragons.)

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Well personally, I've always known drakes to be wingless dragons traditionally. I knew some sources called certain dragon subtypes something else. I've seen lindwurm and wyvern basically being interchangeable. I've also seen wyrm just mean 'dragon' in general. However, most things I look at share the same definitions of dragon subtypes:

 

wyverns: hind legs and wings

lindwurms: front legs and sometimes wings

wyrms: legless and wingless

amphiptere: has wings but otherwise limbless, sea serpents: generally fins instead of legs or wings but can have legs

eastern: elongated body with sometimes long neck and tail and shorter legs but no wings

western: traditional four-legged and winged dragon

drake: four-legged western build and no wings

 

That's the most common thing I've found in different fictional worlds. Sometimes western just encompasses drakes, but usually drakes are considered separate. It wasn't until the Ochredrakes popped up that a TOTALLY new meaning of drake evolved. I remember thinking "that's not a drake" when I first saw them.

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I don't like Dorak, but I agree that it could be frustrating to not be able to use "drake" as a general term.

 

However, I'm not entirely sure how to rename them in away that doesn't sound... Off.

 

I dunno, maybe something like adding "Lesser" to the front of a "DC Drake" name?

 

Like "Lesser Drakes" are a specific type of dragon, consisting of the current "DC Drake" breeds?

 

 

Though I'd be fine with the name being kept the same, too, personally.

 

 

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