ANSWERED:Suggestions to improve the raffle

[Syphoneira]

It has just occurred to me that one REALLY REALLY nice thing about the raffle is that the prizes are random. This means that people with terrible connections, ancient machines, or arthritis which makes them unable to hunt well have the same chance as anyone else to get a CB that is rare. As they will so often never get a metallic - or even a bluna - in the biomes and so on - this really pleases me.

 

Just saying. Yet another reason not to rule out new players ! and not to make it dependent on high speed games, either.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, fuzzy!

 

That point should have been frequently specified all along, considering its importance, and without you, I don't know when this would have occurred!

 

 

 

 

Edit: hi, Amazon_warrior!

 

Lol, even the messiest Canopy may get picked up now, with single eggs being produced to dump, but if there was the potential for any or all of the messy commons to appear in litters, would this still be the case?

 

There were far too many to deal with for so many years of multi-clutching, even with so many different AP clearing armies of people doing it, and it took so long to get the AP - following the elimination of multi-clutches and of Cave blocking - turned into the fun source of CB commons it is now...

Edited January 14, 2014 by Syphoneira

[whitebaron]

If it were a BSA (Purple or other), I doubt many people would have the desire or capacity to use it on every single breeding. And since the AP no longer blocks the Cave, I don't think it's a huge issue anyway. Even the messiest Canopy seems to get picked up eventually...

I#d need to stock up on purples if that were the case. There's so many crimsons to massbreed and I still can't get the AP to have a crimson wall, even with getting closer to 200 Crimsons.

[Amazon_warrior]

I#d need to stock up on purples if that were the case. There's so many crimsons to massbreed and I still can't get the AP to have a crimson wall, even with getting closer to 200 Crimsons.

DO EEET! And then perhaps I'd be able to breed some Reds from my Red/Crimson memorial lineage.

 

 

@Syphoneira: Players would adapt, they always do. Gotta love emergent game-play...

Edited January 14, 2014 by Amazon_warrior

[Sheriziya]

Its just...you have to think about our personal preferences as well. If I want to give my friends something special and exclusive for them, I don't see any good reason as to why my ability to do that should be threatened. granted, I've completed that ages ago, so it might not affect me now....but if I'm trying to breed for different people and multiclutches affect the ratio? I'd rather have one egg a week than 3 in one week and nothing for two months. D:

Well, a rework for the fertility BSA might help in this case. Yes, I know there are people who'd rather not have such a feature usable on prize dragons, but I can see your reasoning behind not wanting to simply auto-AP a carefully bred lineage.

 

Personally I'd like to see a rework as TJ suggested in the above linked thread. This will give the prize owners a choice what to do with their carefully bred lineage and for those prizeowners who don't care (so much) about their lineage offspring randomly appearing on someone else's scroll (or simply want to gift, gift, gift ), there's still a possibility to do what you want. With this in mind, would Olympe's suggestion for the multiclutching still be "needed" or would the BSA multiclutching already help enough?

 

When I'll fulfill my goal? Probably never at the rate I'm going. 

 

I think that pretty much shows where my interest in tinsels and shimmers went.

 

The list? It just stayed... I keep most of my data in a notebook, but that list in my profile was to facilitate trades when I used to do them (frequently in the past). I would open up a trade and direct traders to my profile, faster than copying everything down on the trade post.

Since I never found a new use for the profile, the list stayed. Actually, until very recently (that I happened to go there, I don't remember why), I had completely forgotten about its existence. 

Ah, that explains it all In that case, please forget what I said Doesn't apply than!

 

I know current CB prize owners feel they've got something exclusive and they do. BUT (and I really don't intend to step on anyone's toes here or to hurt or offend anyone, just stating what I'm finding on factual information as far as I can find it)..... in contradiction to what I see some people saying, it was never promised this would be exclusive for ever. I've looked back at the original threads about the prizes and raffles and TJ never said these prizes would stay exclusive. He's only announced it was a "never-before-seen dragon". And yes, with first, second and third prizes, this SUGGESTS exclusivity, but it actually isn't. Getting back to the concept of a raffle, usually you'll get an item for free in a raffle which you'd otherwise had to pay for in a shop and which, in the shop, would be available for everyone to buy. Think about raffles for a new book from a famous writer prior to selling the book in the store. Everyone's got an equal chance (going on the assumption everyone only gets one ticket, like here on DC). If you participate in the raffle, you might win the book. And everyone remembers you won that book! At least this is the case with the raffles I've joined in the past. Lotteries are different, I realize that, but raffles..... And here at DC we're talking about raffles, right? So if you'd do the same with raffles here in DC, you could say that yes, prize owners get the special dragon for free and at some point others would get that dragon too from the cave (similar to buying the book in the shop whereas the prizewinner in the raffle would win the new book and thus get it for free).

I do understand, however, that prize winners would like to keep that feeling of exclusivity. Like someone else already said: you're the ones who will be remembered for starting lineages and for having the original CB prizes. Especially since most CB prize dragons are listed on the wikia (Tinsels, Shimmer-Scales). Heck, I go looking there when someone states they've got an offspring from some famous/rare/etc prizedragon to be traded. And I don't think listings like the wikia will change if and when an adjusted system is implemented. So imho you'll always have the exclusivity. But that's just my humble opinion

 

Like Natli and Angelicdragonpuppy have said, the raffle can't be undone and people will always complain. That's always the case, both in real life as in games. And yes, maybe we should wait a few weeks/months to see what this new release of prize dragons will bring us in the trademarket. But on the other hand, since we're already into the discussion, we might as well keep discussing it and see if we can work out the kinks in a possible solution. Cause if I look at the numbers, we've got 120 tinsels and 120 shimmer-scales released in the cave (divided into the three categories of course). Some of the players who've received these dragons are not playing anymore. I don't know how many actual active players we've got who've received a CB prize dragon AND who are actively breeding (not talking about distributing!) their dragon. But 120 dragons of both Western and Eastern dragons on a player base of thousands seems ..... a very small base. So yes, breeding will happen, I assume, and the trading market/gifting/AP-ing will happen but I think our concerns will still mostly be valid. So let's recap those concerns for a minute (I've excluded the one about the winrates and added a few new ones):

 

What's the base of this thread?

The thread started because the raffle:

leads to mountains of PMs to the prize dragon winners [and a certain amount of harassment] (is this still valid?)

leaves most of the users only dreaming of getting a prize dragon, their only hope a long gen months, or even a year or more in the future.

The ratio of breeding results from prize dragons seems not good (not enough prize dragons are being produced)

Creating lineages with prize dragons is hard because the lineage creator can't get the dragons s/he wants

Fear of (shiny) hatchies from multi clutches growing up through the AP and going to the wild instead of ending up on someone's scroll

Balance between low-gen and high-gen prize dragons for breeders both in obtaining and creating lineages

Not enough CB Prize dragons to make good lineages

With general Multiclutching offspring from carefully bred prize dragon lineages might go to the AP while to owner doesn't want this happening.

CB prize owners want to keep the feeling that they've got something exclusive.

Did I miss anything?

 

Which is all culminating in a trademarket which has gone insane (or a trademarket where we have no seemingly fair balance anymore), if I may deduce that from the comments. I don't have any experience in the trademarket, so I can't really say anything about it. This leads to the a general feeling amongst a (big?) part of our community:

Although DC was original a fun collectables games, it's become a trading game where it's become hard to actually collect every dragon you want.

With all the new input, where does this leave us with suggestions? I've made some adjustments to my original combo suggestion:

New suggestion

Base:

More raffles to spread the joy of the new prize dragons as well as the old (see the rest of the suggestion)

Fertility BSA for Multiclutching as suggested by TJ in rework for the fertility BSA. Keep in mind Multiclutching gives (as far as I know) a maximum of 4 eggs of which we get to keep 1. These 4 eggs may be divided as followed: 4 prize dragons, 3 prize dragons and 1 kin, 2 prize dragons and 2 kins, 1 prize dragons and 3 kins, 4 kins.

Higher success rate for breeding prize dragons as reports suggest that the success rate has gone down.

Adjustment to API/hatcheries to deny access to the eggs/hatchlings on the AP to prevent prize dragons from growing up through the AP and going into the wild instead of on someone's scroll. Or whatever other solution comes out of this thread.

Prize dragons released during the years following this last raffle:

Raffle 1: special dragon 1 for prizes in raffle, Shimmer-scales and Tinsels retire and become available for HM as CB.

Raffle 2: special dragon 1 for prizes in raffle, Shimmer-Scales and Tinsels are still retired and available for HM as CB

Raffle 3: special dragon 2 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 retires and becomes available for HM as CB, Shimmer-Scales and Tinsels become available from now on as a rare dragon in the cave.

Raffle 4: special dragon 2 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 is still retired and available for HM as CB.

Raffle 5: Special dragon 3 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 becomes available from now on as a rare dragon in the cave. Special dragon 2 becomes available for HM as CB

Raffle 6: Special dragon 3 for prizes in raffle, Special dragon 2 is still available for HM as CB

Raffle 7: Special dragon 4 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 2 becomes available from now on as a rare dragon in the cave, special dragon 3 becomes available for HM as CB.

Etc.

What would be the consequences of this?

• Exclusivity: Original CB Prize owners will have a true exclusivity for about 4 years/raffles (2 years/raffles of the dragon as a prize in the raffle + 2 years/raffles possibility to choose the dragon as HM amongst a variety of other possibilities). After that I think they'll still have a certain exclusivity as they are the ones who started the original lineages. Also many of the original prize dragons are listed on the wiki (as linked above) and I think players will keep asking for offspring of these lineages, like others already stated. AND the prize dragons would become RARE dragons in the cave, like the Golds and Silvers so it wouldn't be like everyone can easily get them.
• All players (Like Fuzz stated) have an equal chance to get something exclusive from the raffle (albeit limited to 4 years/raffles per prize dragon species), including "people with terrible connections, ancient machines, or arthritis which makes them unable to hunt well". After those first four years/raffles those people will have a chance in the cave too, but it might be limited to connections, etc.
• The fertility BSA Multiclutching makes it possible for prizeowners to donate/gift/whatever multiple eggs if they want it.
• With a fertility BSA Multiclutching instead of a general multiclutch for all dragons prizeowners can still create their perfect lineage (as in perfect for them, not judging lineages here ) and decide who to gift an offspring from their carefully bred lineage. They don't HAVE to use multiclutch on their lineage dragons (or whatever dragons for that matter) if they don't want to.
• We get new blood for prizedragons on a regular basis which will keep the flow of low-gen prize dragons as well as high-gen prize dragons going. In my personal opinion it might also help in creating lineages you might otherwise not be able to create or would have to wait months/years before you'd be able to create it.
• The trademarket gets balanced again. Obtaining rare dragons becomes a possibility (still with hard work) for new(er)/casual players too instead of this only being available to those who have been here long and/or can be here all the time to catch and/or breed everything they need for the high-end trades. And thus prize dragons become something all players can get at some point, instead of something that's "dangling over our head, always just out of reach".
• IMHO DC becomes a collecting game again instead of a game ruled for a greater part by the trademarket. And after all, DC did start out as a collecting game we all loved, didn't it?

I've excluded Olympe's Multiclutching suggestion as this seems, to me, it might be counterproductive to the fertility BSA. I'd like to hear your opinions on that, though!

 

Questions remaining

1. Will this solve the "massive PM-ing" problem? I think it will contribute in solving this problem, just like Amazon_warrior's Guide.

2. Will prize dragons now actually produce more prize dragons (as in ratio questions)? I don't know. Some say they breed perfectly fine, while others say they're hard to breed. Apparently this is also dependant on the mate you choose. It seems changing a mate might actually help in getting better results. I do think, though, we have a better chance to get more prize dragons into the community.

3. Will it stop shiny hatchies from growing up through the AP? That's the big question. That will only happen if a solution for that particular problem can be found, like stated in the base of my suggestion.

4. Anything else that's not been answered/solved?

 

It was a long post again, but I hope it contributes to finding a solution

Edited January 15, 2014 by Sheriziya

[Amazon_warrior]

Oh, I wasn't trying to imply you were for or against multiclutching. Sorry if it came off rude, I was aiming for amusing. :-)  You were complaining that you never have a chance to create pretty lineages with your prize dragon because it produces shinies so rarely. So I was suggesting that if you had multiclutches, you'd have four times as many chances for a shimmer egg each time you bred your dragon. That's all. :-)

Since we're talking here about the dragon that has steadfastly avoided breeding a shiny in any personal breeding I've done with her, and who charmingly gave me a refusal for Christmas, I wouldn't put it past her to just.... refuse MOAR. Or produce 4 fails. Or produce no eggs at all.

 

 

 

Actually you probably did them a favor too. I got onto a shimmerscale list the first week they were released (no bullying involved of course.) There were a dozen people in front of me. I'm still waiting. Long lists are not the friends of either the prize owners or the would-be traders, IMHO!

Possibly. Though so few people seem able to take a longer view here. It's a bit odd in a game that hinges on patience and forward planning, but there we go.

 

(Actually, I do understand the pressure, since there's a fundamental imbalance in time constraints for prize owners vs. people making offers. People with stuff to trade *now* can't easily wait because the eggs or hatchies they have to trade will have to grow up or die eventually (or they end up doing a weird shuffle of endlessly swapping low-time hatchies for high-time eggs). Whereas the prize owner has ultimate control over when their prize is bred. But as soon as an IOU is made, the pressure swings back the other way and is then on the prize owner to breed in a timely fashion.)

[Sheriziya]

Since we're talking here about the dragon that has steadfastly avoided breeding a shiny in any personal breeding I've done with her, and who charmingly gave me a refusal for Christmas, I wouldn't put it past her to just.... refuse MOAR.  Or produce 4 fails.  Or produce no eggs at all. 

Oh, I thought refusals were turned off during the holiday periods. Or is this only for the holiday dragons? /* confused now */

 

(Actually, I do understand the pressure, since there's a fundamental imbalance in time constraints for prize owners vs. people making offers.  People with stuff to trade *now* can't easily wait because the eggs or hatchies they have to trade will have to grow up or die eventually (or they end up doing a weird shuffle of endlessly swapping low-time hatchies for high-time eggs).  Whereas the prize owner has ultimate control over when their prize is bred.  But as soon as an IOU is made, the pressure swings back the other way and is then on the prize owner to breed in a timely fashion.)

Let's hope those people read this thread and help with suggestions, like you do

[Amazon_warrior]

Oh, I thought refusals were turned off during the holiday periods. Or is this only for the holiday dragons? /* confused now */

I didn't breed her with a Christmas dragon. The whole crazy Christmas trading thing annoyed me, so I decided to try and breed a mate for him instead. Hopefully next year will be a bit saner and I might choose to breed her with a Christmas then.

[Sheriziya]

Ah, I see

[whitebaron]

(Actually, I do understand the pressure, since there's a fundamental imbalance in time constraints for prize owners vs. people making offers. People with stuff to trade *now* can't easily wait because the eggs or hatchies they have to trade will have to grow up or die eventually (or they end up doing a weird shuffle of endlessly swapping low-time hatchies for high-time eggs). Whereas the prize owner has ultimate control over when their prize is bred. But as soon as an IOU is made, the pressure swings back the other way and is then on the prize owner to breed in a timely fashion.)

If I ever won, I'd probably wait for a very long time to actually start trading. There's so much immediate rush, and for what? You can as well trade your stuff away when everyone is already even more desperate.

 

Besides, I would have very evil plans, that do not include CB Metals at all.

[Sheriziya]

If I ever won, I'd probably wait for a very long time to actually start trading. There's so much immediate rush, and for what? You can as well trade your stuff away when everyone is already even more desperate.

 

Besides, I would have very evil plans, that do not include CB Metals at all.

Do they involve A Royal Crimson Army?

Edited January 14, 2014 by Sheriziya

[Amazon_warrior]

If I ever won, I'd probably wait for a very long time to actually start trading. There's so much immediate rush, and for what? You can as well trade your stuff away when everyone is already even more desperate.

 

Besides, I would have very evil plans, that do not include CB Metals at all.

If by some freak stroke of luck I won properly, I'd probably hide my scroll, only breed the new prize to unnamed dragons and only possibly open up trading/gifting once I had at least 10 shiny offspring on my scroll.

 

/agrees about the CB metals.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Amazon_warrior

[whitebaron]

Do they involve A Royal Crimson Army?

Yes, many times over.

But I'll keep my ideas to myself unless a CB Prize owner wants to do some fun trading/gifting, then I might tell them my first three ideas. (I have more than that, all involving crimsons)

[Ender]

I like #3, I think people would like to get a consolation prize, and they would be sent out only to the people that actually got into the raffle.

[Obscure_Trash]

Please stay on topic. This is not the thread to discuss what you would do if you won a raffle.

[Kelkelen]

Okay, so... if there were a BSA that caused multi-clutching...

 

Can you imagine the AP? All the non-forum players who would discover the BSA and go "Whee! That's cool!" and multi-clutch whenever their Purples or whatever cooled down, without knowing anything about the history of the AP and cave blockers and ratios and whatnot? I really can't see it being a good idea. We're so backed up, as it is.

^ I still think this is a good reason *not* to aim for multi-clutching.

 

I do, however, really like angelicdragonpuppy's idea about endowing the Prize dragons with an always-breed ability. If they would definitely produce an egg each time they mated, although it could be either breed, it would still probably have a positive impact on several things: the pricing of 2nd-gen prizes and fails, the winners' willingness to accept lower/less impressive trades (knowing that there's no chance they might hit a two-month dry spell afterwards, and can always ask a little higher or aim for that thing they want to trade for the next time around), some players' despair at the low chance of ever obtaining a 2nd- or 3rd-gen Prize dragon, and winners' decisions to keep gift or trade lists.

 

Other than that, I think things are in a good place right now, and I'm curious to see how it all plays out. We now have:

 

*an AP where we can obtain low-time eggs and thus potentially gather CB or nicely-lineaged hatchies to offer on trades in a much more timely fashion

* metallics that go through small spells of better breeding

* DOUBLE the Prize dragons that there were before

* Lots more public awareness about the winners, in terms of preparing them, giving them advice, and keeping people from harassing them

* And if TJ has adjusted breeding ratios or anything already, we won't know until we see how the dragons behave!

[whitebaron]

* And if TJ has adjusted breeding ratios or anything already, we won't know until we see how the dragons behave!

tj has not adjusted ratios.(as of now) its easy to see, as the existing prize dragons bred normally this week.

Edited January 14, 2014 by whitebaron

[Kelkelen]

tj has not adjusted ratios.(as of now) its easy to see, as the existing prize dragons bred normally this week.

Well, maybe I should have said "if he's planning to adjust them." I wouldn't expect anything different until the new prize dragons are actually in circulation.

[Sheriziya]

Okay, so... if there were a BSA that caused multi-clutching...

 

Can you imagine the AP? All the non-forum players who would discover the BSA and go "Whee! That's cool!" and multi-clutch whenever their Purples or whatever cooled down, without knowing anything about the history of the AP and cave blockers and ratios and whatnot? I really can't see it being a good idea. We're so backed up, as it is.

 

^ I still think this is a good reason *not* to aim for multi-clutching.

I doubt the BSA as suggested by TJ (multiclutch instead of fertility for the purples) would cause such a massive backlog in the AP. I think it could only cause a massive backlog in the AP if:

• Every prizeowner would use that BSA on every prize dragon (there are already several prize owners who've stated they don't want to have general multiclutching for several reasons and some have already stated they wouldn't use the BSA on their prize dragons).
• The multiclutch would always contain 4 eggs of prize dragons, which I highly doubt.

I have had multiclutches, in the past when we still had multiclutching and now with the holiday breeding. Even with the holiday breeding I rarely have a 4 egg clutch. The highest clutch I had last Christmas is 3 eggs, while I have had clutches of only 2 dragons too.

 

I too am curious to see how the current change works out, although I don't keep my hopes up too high that this was THE change we needed.

[HeatherMarie]

The site is becoming a market rotating around one scarce group of low-gen Prizes, and we'd like DC to remain about the dragons themselves, not just their prices - and to have the community not split into haves and have-nots to the degree it's now become.

(Sorry, I have not read every single post in the 8 pages since I last posted. Just trying to respond a little anyways.)

 

I don't want to sound rude or like I don't care about this problem, because that's not the case at all. I just.... don't understand how this has become such a *Huge* shift. The site is starting to revolve around one small group of dragons..... *because* that's what the users are most focused on.

 

I guess I just.... don't see "the site"'s fault in this specific problem. The only way that something can become so valuable is if enough people *want* it badly enough and *make* it valuable. The only way DragonCave, a collecting site, can become a "market" in some user's eyes is if they play the game that way. DragonCave *itself* hasn't changed one bit. Teleport, ie trading, is not new. Prize dragons and raffles aren't new! If the game has changed, it's because of the users.

 

The game has not changed for me at all, because I'm not scrambling to try to get on lists, I'm not doing math to figure out the chances of getting a 2nd-gen, etc etc. I'm simply not a part of this mess, so maybe I shouldn't be posting here.... Or maybe I have a more unbiased view.

 

Whatever happens, I am *definitely* against Prize Dragons eventually becoming regular in-cave dragons after a certain number of years. That takes the "prize" away from "Prize Dragon.

[olympe]

I guess I just.... don't see "the site"'s fault in this specific problem. The only way that something can become so valuable is if enough people *want* it badly enough and *make* it valuable. The only way DragonCave, a collecting site, can become a "market" in some user's eyes is if they play the game that way. DragonCave *itself* hasn't changed one bit. Teleport, ie trading, is not new. Prize dragons and raffles aren't new! If the game has changed, it's because of the users.

The price of wares is determined by demand, true. But also by supply, which is scarcer than scarce.

[Sarah864]

Why not more raffles AND multiclutch?

[stellalala]

Personally, I think the consolidation prize is the pest option.

[Allspice]

 

 

Imagine the AP potentially tripled with bred commons, many likely messy and unwanted by most.

 

Commons are the most reliable producers, and were, at least as I recall, the most likely to produce larger clutches.

 

One messy egg sprite may be taken for freezing by someone wanting a lower-time egg to produce a sprite for the purpose - 3 or 4 of the same requires more people willing to do so, or more people simply sacrificing their time and/or freezing slots to the purpose of getting some few of them out of the way.

 

Multiply by all the commons bred, not just the lineage breeders with nice even-gens, but all of those randomly bred by newer people breeding their scrolls for fun, every week - not one potentially produced, but up to 4 (again) now - how cool!

 

(Yes, of course it's their right, and of course some people don't mind or even like messy/inbred lineages - but most forum people don't, and are often looking for useful common mates/CBs, so if there are very many, they tend to pile up on the visible surface of the AP and block everything else off.)

 

With the return of multiclutching for all dragons comes the strong potential of the return of an AP in which nothing useful to anyone present may appear across the whole of a picked-over top layer showing, in an AP many people may predominately or entirely lose interest in hunting, with a backlog of bred eggs up to three quarters of which might likely be of little or no interest to anyone looking for CB commons or anything else.

 

And anything of interest will remain behind that backlog until it's reduced.

 

My days of AP clearance are long over, and many people had grown sick of this scroll-filling bore long before TJ fixed the AP Cave-Blocking issue and the multi-clutch issue to produce the fun and useful AP we have now.

 

I gather you weren't around while multi-clutching was an issue - if you had, you wouldn't be speaking of only the ratios in regard to any prospect of its return, lol.

No, I wasn't. Nevermind then, forget I said anything. I'll delete the post.

 

OT: How about instead of a dull version of a Prize dragon being released in cave, why not have a regular release coincide with the raffle winners announcement? Then everyone will have new dragons to focus on, winners and non winners alike.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Allspice

[diaveborn]

why not have a regular release coincide with the raffle winners announcement? Then everyone will have new dragons to focus on, winners and non winners alike.

I think that's a fantastic idea!

Edited January 15, 2014 by diaveborn

[angelicdragonpuppy]

OT: How about instead of a dull version of a Prize dragon being released in cave, why not have a regular release coincide with the raffle winners announcement? Then everyone will have new dragons to focus on, winners and non winners alike.

We already have a Christmas release shortly beforehand, and a Valentines release not too long after. If those aren't enough to dull the annoyance of missing out on low gens of an exclusive breed (and they really aren't), I doubt throwing in another release will do the trick either.