Discussion on View Bombing

[Xythus]

I know there is this one part of the site where you have to provide your DC Scroll name and your DC password, and it allows you to view your scroll stats (like # of dragons, ratios, male + females, offspring, etc.). Its part of the actual DC site though, so I'm not sure if it works outside of DC, or if its okay for the fansites to use it. I'd imagine it would be possible, but complicated (wouldn't know, I know nothing about computers).

 

The funny thing about this issue is that when it happens to someone and they complain/report, all thats told to us is that there is nothing that can be done, or as said by another person in an earlier post, people share their experiences but you never do find out who gave you aid. I feel like there isn't anything stopping a viewbomber from doing so other than that sentence "(Please note that it is against the site rules to give aid to a user without their permission.)", which was obligatory in the first place.

 

I personally have been attacked multiple times, from commons to rares, and its never fun. Only two times was the person successful in killing the dragon though. I do somewhat agree that its part of the game to care and watch your dragons, but not all of us can man our computers 24/7!

 

 

[Pokemonfan13]

The thing is, you don't have to have the password system tied to the DC system. It is the most convenient because it means you don't have to make sure you go to every fansite and make a password to make sure someone else doesn't beat you to it [or in the case of a voluntary system to make sure your scroll has a password attached to it in that fansite's system], but that isn't too much of a hardship if it means your dragons are safe from easy viewbombing.

 

I know that no matter what we do with fansites bombers could still post in various forums, but the easiest way with the least amount of work for them is fansites, and if we take that away from them it might very well help.

[Chanilove]

I might try a different system on EATW, I think about allowing BOTH adding via scrollname AND via API login, but if you used the API login once you get the option to restrict adding your scroll to API login only.

 

Not as smooth as a better API login would be, but that should sattisfy both groups, those who find the API login annoying and those who want there scrolls protected. Opinions?

Just thought I'd bump this because I personally think it's just what everyone's looking for. My PHP/MySQL skills are lackluster, but if I'm correct then Ext3h has just proposed a possible solution and his post should've been /endthread.

 

The API login is what we use for Dragonmarket, yeah? It doesn't require our passwords to be passed on to a third-party site? And it'll be optional, you say? Well what are we still arguing about here! The only problem I can see is that the majority of hatcheries will have to comply with this in order for it to have a genuine effect. Even then it won't completely resolve the issue -- as SPS mentioned, hatcheries are not the only way eggs can be killed. Still, this is the only option without demanding a change to the Cave itself or a login for every fansite, both of which are inviable. It sounds like a grand idea to me!

 

We can ask other site administrators to use the API login on their fansites as well. I'm sure not everyone will be for it, but I can see more support for this than creating a login design for the sites themselves. I am gonna ask that everyone be respectful when they request, though. If the site administrators say no, back off. They know more about coding than I do and have a lot less free time. Also, I'd rather not have them irritated with me/cursing my name/blacklisting my scroll from their sites/throttling me because of this post. >.>

Edited August 8, 2012 by Chanilove

[Pokemonfan13]

I really don't care how it is done, as long as I can make it so that people who aren't me can't add my dragons to fansites. And it doesn't really matter for the fansites that only give a few dozen views a day, but ideally every fansite should have a way to prevent people who aren't the scroll owner from adding those dragons, and an optional password seems like the simplest to me.

 

And I know that fansites are not the only way to bomb an egg, but if the fansites are taken out of the equation it could very easily stop the casual bomber, the person who thinks its funny to kill an egg or piss off a user.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Pokemonfan13

[Sorrowgrave]

when ever I see a newbie has help allowed on I check to make sure there's nothing rare on their scroll before I add, I also wait until 3 or four day mark. The eggs seem to be more resistant to sickness then

 

 

[Chanilove]

I did just think of something, though. Will it be impossible to put this to use on sites that allow code-adding instead of scroll-adding, like Silvi's? Is it possible with the API to check code-added dragons for the username displayed on their view page and disallow it if it's a scroll entered in the database as API-only? Even so, that would only work if the users had their scroll names displayed on their dragons' pages...

 

I'm really hoping this makes sense. I lack proper terminology and brains, if that isn't already apparent.

 

I really don't care how it is done, as long as I can make it so that people who aren't me can't add my dragons to fansites.

 

And I know that fansites are not the only way to bomb an egg, but if the fansites are taken out of the equation it could very easily stop the casual bomber, the person who thinks its funny to kill an egg or piss off a user.

This seems like the best option (again, only if I'm understanding Ext3h right -- I'm a computer language derp).

 

I do agree that this will help out a ton with viewbombing, despite that hatcheries are not the only way. It seems the most efficient way to stop the "casual bomber" as you said. You would really have to hate someone's guts to go around egg-spamming on various forums and whatnot. o.o

Edited August 8, 2012 by Chanilove

[Pokemonfan13]

I guess the main question is, does the API attach an egg to a scroll? If that's the case all you'd just have to check to make sure the scroll doesn't require a password, and if it does ask for one before adding the egg.

[Chanilove]

I guess the main question is, does the API attach an egg to a scroll?  If that's the case all you'd just have to check to make sure the scroll doesn't require a password, and if it does ask for one before adding the egg.

Oh, duh. I was completely overthinking it. Yes, of course the egg could become linked with the scroll on submission. Then the only problem I can foresee would be for any person who was traded/given an egg/hatchling still linked to the previous owner's scroll, but that's a problem we already face and it's easily corrected by fogging (for most sites, anyway -- I don't think all of them remove fogged dragons) or by the previous owner updating their scroll.

 

EDIT: I'm overunderthinking again. The new owner could simply use the API login to correct it him-/herself. Naturally the code would be written to remove said dragon from the previous owner's scroll and attach it to the new one. -facepalm- I think it must be past my bedtime...

 

I really hope to see this feature implemented, though.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Chanilove

[Classycal]

I think that if all Hatcheries were to switch to requiring scroll names to enter in egg codes; this maybe enough to deter most of the spiteful malcious jerks out there. it wont cure all of them, but it is imo the easiest solution to a growing prolem within our community.

 

Red2111, I think this might actually help since it is extremely easy to get the code of any egg - even a fogged one. (And for those of you who don't know how, I'm not telling. Don't PM me because I won't tell you.)

 

 

I know there is this one part of the site where you have to provide your DC Scroll name and your DC password, and it allows you to view your scroll stats (like # of dragons, ratios, male + females, offspring, etc.). Its part of the actual DC site though, so I'm not sure if it works outside of DC, or if its okay for the fansites to use it. I'd imagine it would be possible, but complicated (wouldn't know, I know nothing about computers).

 

Xythus, with some of the fansites, you can check the stats of any scroll as long as you know the name of the owner. I don't see a problem with that because it doesn't affect their eggs or hatchies. (And it doesn't allow you to see the scroll.) It's interesting to find out how long folks have been on DC and how many dragons they have.

 

 

Interesting topic. I've not had any problems recently, but I, too, have had it happen. The first time it happened, it was egg specific. The egg was on the uncommon / rare side and I got a somewhat rude PM asking if I could give the egg to the PM'r. I politely declined, but I got the PM so quickly, that the person had to have tried clicking on the egg to find that someone else (me) had gotten it. (I really don't think they just happened to come across my scroll right after I caught the egg.) I was still somewhat new and left the computer for about 30 minutes and when I came back the egg was sick and had had about 1000 views. I quickly fogged it and fortunately did not lose the egg. The second time it happened, it happened with all my babies, but I think it was because I was helping several noobs at the time and they thought they were "helping" me even though I have my scroll set to not get help. I don't have any proof that that is what happened, but I posted in my forum signature to not help me, and it immediately stopped.

 

I tend to keep a very close eye on "important" eggs and always leave them fogged unless I'm right in front of the computer. But I'm in a position where I don't have to share my computer and I have internet access any time I want. I know that isn't the case with everyone. I also rarely put my eggs on more than one site, but then I've not been in a hurry to hatch eggs of late, either.

 

And, finally, I don't understand the pettiness of anyone doing this. Grow up, already.

[bbik]

I did just think of something, though. Will it be impossible to put this to use on sites that allow code-adding instead of scroll-adding, like Silvi's? Is it possible with the API to check code-added dragons for the username displayed on their view page and disallow it if it's a scroll entered in the database as API-only? Even so, that would only work if the users had their scroll names displayed on their dragons' pages...

You're not over/underthinking this at all. If the user has their scroll name hidden and adds an individual egg by the code, the fansite does not know the scroll either. Which renders the whole optional login idea quite useless for almost every ER out there -- and it's the ER dragons which are the least likely to have the time/ability to prevent the bombing in other ways. So even if the time was spent on creating the code, it would only help in limited ways -- unless all fansites also switched to being exclusively scrollname-based, which I absolutely do not see happening.

[Pokemonfan13]

Right now we're being like NASA when they said that the o-rings weren't a problem and the foam coming off wasn't a problem. Or like a guy with a glitching electronic saying "yea, it does that" when it could be working like new, perhaps with just a firmware update to replace the bugged coding. Just because something has been happening for a long time and you're used to it doesn't mean it isn't a problem! I've been complacent about it for years, but this recent bout of malicious action against me has spurred me to say that yes, it is a problem!

 

I might not have suggested the best or easiest fix, but then the people who are the experts on coding an how this whole thing works should come up with something that makes it so people who aren't the scroll owner can't add the scroll to the site. If you talk about it and say 'well, the best fix is on TJ's end with the API" then go and say "we need this to prevent our sites from being used for viewboming!". Take action, don't just sit there and pretend it isn't a problem when it is.

 

The problem is it is human nature to get used to the status quo, but if a problem can be fixed it should be fixed. And there are multiple ways to fix this problem. One of the ones the hatchery owners can do by themselves is optional passwords. Another that would help would be to track the IPs of people who add each scroll [a few days would be enough] and allow TJ access to that data so there's at least a chance that he could investigate bombings and if he can tie the actor to a dragcave account, punish the person, because right now there is complete anonymity and complete safety, even though they are breaking the rules. There are things that can be done on both ends, and if one end isn't acting the other should.

[Ext3h]

All those things have been said a long time ago, but only few things ever changed. It's just that viewbombing is part of the game (even if you don't like it) and as long as only 1 of 1000 users is affected, there is no reason to invest any work in changing the system, neither for the fansite owners nor for TJ.

 

And like you already noticed, EVERY fanpage had to add that type of security systen, but even worse, you still had to visit every single fansite to prevent your scroll from beeing added, seems like a stupid idea to me. You don't want your scroll added on fansites? Fine, just hide your scroll. You don't want to hide your scroll? Well, ask TJ to protect your scroll from beeing accesed via the API, since that is what you actually want. Or get him to remove that antiquated sickness thing.

 

But don't think you can command other people around to invest hours of work each, just to make their work to fit your idea. Your idea wasn't thought out well in the first place and i don't see how beeing a assistance moderator entitels you to demand changes on sites you have nothing to do with. Maybe you should ask TJ for advice next time, before publishing such an half-baked idea.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Ext3h

[Pokemonfan13]

Ya, and it is infinitely easier to create a password with every fansite than to hide your scroll forever.

[pinkgothic]

The only problem I can see is that the majority of hatcheries will have to comply with this in order for it to have a genuine effect. Even then it won't completely resolve the issue -- as SPS mentioned, hatcheries are not the only way eggs can be killed.

 

This is my problem with this.

 

The entire Dragon Cave site is laid out to make it as easy as possible to share your dragons on the internet, be that in signatures on forums, as little images for a section in your homepage, or through hatcheries. If you plug up one hole (hatcheries), there are still plenty others that you have no control over. If it's to be addressed, it needs to be addressed at the one place that it can reliably deal with all vectors: The site itself. Otherwise it's really just band-aids across a torn limb and the problem simply will not go away.

 

I've already mentioned it in this thread, but it serves repeating - there was once a suggestion about being able to whitelist sites based on the HTTP referer - you'd be able to decide e.g. 'I accept views if they come from http://greg-kennedy.com/dragcave/ (Egg Drop Soup) or http://hatchingdragons.com/ (Hatching Your Dragons)'. Since that'll block all incoming views if they don't come from a whitelisted URL, that puts you in control of where your eggs can or can't go, and doesn't rely on other people playing by the rules - which is why I think it's likely the most viable solution to the problem. The biggest downside is that some people configure their browsers not to send a referer; they'd be unable to view whitelist-requiring eggs even on fansites that were whitelisted. Another downside is that (if you opted to use this feature) you'd have to maintain the list whenever you stop using a certain fansite or start using a new one. But I imagine those things would be a small price to pay? Iunno. I'd really like to see this implemented, though.

Edited August 9, 2012 by pinkgothic

[Chanilove]

This is my problem with this.

 

The entire Dragon Cave site is laid out to make it as easy as possible to share your dragons on the internet, be that in signatures on forums, as little images for a section in your homepage, or through hatcheries. If you plug up one hole (hatcheries), there are still plenty others that you have no control over. If it's to be addressed, it needs to be addressed at the one place that it can reliably deal with all vectors: The site itself. Otherwise it's really just band-aids across a torn limb and the problem simply will not go away.

 

I've already mentioned it in this thread, but it serves repeating - there was once a suggestion about being able to whitelist sites based on the HTTP referer - you'd be able to decide e.g. 'I accept views if they come from http://greg-kennedy.com/dragcave/ (Egg Drop Soup) or http://hatchingdragons.com/ (Hatching Your Dragons)'. Since that'll block all incoming views if they don't come from a whitelisted URL, that puts you in control of where your eggs can or can't go, and doesn't rely on other people playing by the rules - which is why I think it's likely the most viable solution to the problem. The biggest downside is that some people configure their browsers not to send a referer; they'd be unable to view whitelist-requiring eggs even on fansites that were whitelisted. Another downside is that (if you opted to use this feature) you'd have to maintain the list whenever you stop using a certain fansite or start using a new one. But I imagine those things would be a small price to pay? Iunno. I'd really like to see this implemented, though.

That doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. The sending of referers is allowed in all main browsers by default, yeah? So the only ones who wouldn't be able to see the whitelisted eggs would be people who have deliberately went into their browser's settings and changed it for whatever purpose? I'm just trying to estimate how many viewers wouldn't be able to see these dragons and thus how negative the effect on exposure will be. I just asked a few of my friends what HTTP referers were as a test and none of them knew, so I'm guessing the amount of V/UV/C will be virtually the same. (Though I like to think that the majority of Dragon Cave users are a little more Internet-savvy than my friends... >.>)

 

I'm of the belief that stopping it with hatcheries will take out a big chunk of viewbombing issues. I'd assume that it takes quite a bit of effort to do it through other methods. I mean, we would be taking out the "casual bombers" (using PF13's term again) and would just be left with the truly malicious little fellows out there. Still, I think if there's a way to end it all at once then we should take that route, even if it requires motivating TJ to make a change to the Cave itself.

 

I don't know how much support we'll be able to rouse for it, though. People like me who have only had it happen once or twice tend to care a lot less than players like PF13 who have had a continuous issue with it. It's not that they're bad people, they're just human, and it's likely they assume that it can't be that big of an issue if they've never encountered the problem before. I honestly wouldn't be here if I hadn't had it happen to two hatchlings I intended as gifts. I really hope we can garner enough support, though! I'll go digging for that thread in the suggestions later and make an appearance, at least.

[pinkgothic]

The sending of referers is allowed in all main browsers by default, yeah?

As far as I'm aware, as long as it's from an HTTP to an HTTP site, yes. (HTTPS to HTTP loses the referer for security reasons.)

[montanagal]

I just had one set of eggs grow-up without me (lost internet for over a week, and expected to come back to dead eggs only to find hatchlings when I logged on). So that's nice. But then I just had another set of eggs I bred yesterday that are now dead from overviews. So that's sad. Since somebody is obviously trying to "help" (?) me, could you also check on Lost_Earth_Sanctuary, please? Spread the views around a little, so you don't always go killing innocent eggs.

[Ladywizard]

*scratches her head* did montanagal just admit on here to multiscrolling?

[Ashes The Second]

That doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. The sending of referers is allowed in all main browsers by default, yeah? So the only ones who wouldn't be able to see the whitelisted eggs would be people who have deliberately went into their browser's settings and changed it for whatever purpose? I'm just trying to estimate how many viewers wouldn't be able to see these dragons and thus how negative the effect on exposure will be. I just asked a few of my friends what HTTP referers were as a test and none of them knew, so I'm guessing the amount of V/UV/C will be virtually the same. (Though I like to think that the majority of Dragon Cave users are a little more Internet-savvy than my friends... >.>)

 

I'm of the belief that stopping it with hatcheries will take out a big chunk of viewbombing issues. I'd assume that it takes quite a bit of effort to do it through other methods. I mean, we would be taking out the "casual bombers" (using PF13's term again) and would just be left with the truly malicious little fellows out there. Still, I think if there's a way to end it all at once then we should take that route, even if it requires motivating TJ to make a change to the Cave itself.

 

I don't know how much support we'll be able to rouse for it, though. People like me who have only had it happen once or twice tend to care a lot less than players like PF13 who have had a continuous issue with it. It's not that they're bad people, they're just human, and it's likely they assume that it can't be that big of an issue if they've never encountered the problem before. I honestly wouldn't be here if I hadn't had it happen to two hatchlings I intended as gifts. I really hope we can garner enough support, though! I'll go digging for that thread in the suggestions later and make an appearance, at least.

So much this. No one has tried to viewbomb me yet -- for which I'd be amused they did. I already deal with people who I have to ban on another game for doing foolish things they really shouldn't, and to put a system in place just to get rid of it here would be nice, as well.

 

edit; I don't mean I want to ban that person -- TJ should put some sort of system where you get X amount of views from an IP in Y amount of time then some sort of code should prevent that.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Ashes The Second

[Syphoneira]

Hi, Ladywizard,

 

montanagal said that her (first batch of) eggs were saved by someone and were hatchies when her internet came back, and that the (second batch of) eggs she bred after the first batch hatched died of overviewing, probably due to the typical rush of Views in various hatcheries during New Releases that we're always warned about.

 

So, no - no multiscrolling involved, no worries.

[sparkle10184]

*scratches her head* did montanagal just admit on here to multiscrolling?

No, no. The scroll she spoke of at the end of her post is probably a friend family or something.

[montanagal]

*scratches her head* did montanagal just admit on here to multiscrolling?

LOL. No, it's my sister's account.

[Chanilove]

So much this. No one has tried to viewbomb me yet -- for which I'd be amused they did. I already deal with people who I have to ban on another game for doing foolish things they really shouldn't, and to put a system in place just to get rid of it here would be nice, as well.

 

edit; I don't mean I want to ban that person -- TJ should put some sort of system where you get X amount of views from an IP in Y amount of time then some sort of code should prevent that.

This still wouldn't be solving the problem. If added to enough hatcheries, I'm sure eggs could still get sick. It would also drastically affect "experimentation." Using the referer system or pushing for one of the new fogging BSA's is our best bet, since they are optional and will not have any negative effects on the scrolls of those who do not need/want the changes.

[Ashes The Second]

Just wanted to say, that I wouldn't use a fan site that required my DC password no matter how trustworthy the site is.

 

I've never had a problem with viewbombing but then I fog everything when I'm not on the computer. I'm also lucky in that I have computer access pretty much all day long so I can check my scroll frequently and fog if needed.

This. I see no reason for the first post -- I understand it's incredibly upsetting, but it hasn't happened to me/or I did it to myself by accident (I add my eggs to a lot of hatcheries so I don't have to worry about panicking at the 5d mark anyway).

[Shalora]

This. I see no reason for the first post -- I understand it's incredibly upsetting, but it hasn't happened to me/or I did it to myself by accident (I add my eggs to a lot of hatcheries so I don't have to worry about panicking at the 5d mark anyway).

If it hasn't happened to you, then I don't think you really "understand" what it's like. I am not meaning to be rude, but I thought I understood too. And then it happened to me - and trust me, I had NO CLUE what it actually felt like. It actually is a big deal.