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Accessibility Option for Eggs

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However, rollovers have one very big disadvantage: You have to roll over the egg before getting the other image. And people's eyes move much faster than their mouse pointers. So, if you look at the AP, you'll see the desirable gold egg instantly. However, if you have to activate the rollovers of 5 eggs before finding the one gold egg, you don't stand a chance to catch it. Just to remind you, this suggestion is supposed to help people with various kinds of color blindness, not impair them even further.

 

Regardless of whether or not us artists can see it, the fact of the matter is you need to alter the art in order to put giant letters over them or making them greyscale. Altering art without permission is against the rules.
Yeah, well, since when do eggs fall under that category? They don't even get credit!

 

However, the way I read your comment it means "You cannot do that, no matter how good your inentions are, because I (as the artist) say so - or else...." If that is exactly what is meant, I must admit that it sounds rather selfish to me. After all, the idea is not to destroy your beautiful eggs, but to help people with a problem. Vetoing this just because you can is, well, judge for yourself.

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I know a bit better than some people how much work would be involved with replacing the eggs with a colorblind friendly white with black text. I also know how hard it is to not have a piece of art used that is a big part of the overall concept. However: in the theme of things having an option that eliminates the need to messup the art by replacing it with something that can easily be used, is the easiest way to avoid "ruining" the in cave art.

 

 

I think of having a colorblind option like being a new background. On my own system, my background is set to be straight white. I have no scroll image, just a flat white background. Not having to take time to slow down and seperate the egg images from the background image, and not having a surrounding background color makes it easier for me to pick out colors. I can hunt on the other backgrounds, but not as effectively as i can on a straight white background.

 

 

So: if the artists can not agree to having an alternate way of distinguishing eggs, at the very least provide a "minimal" color background. Straight white, or to keep the default scroll image color take the "scroll" part and move it to white range with a colorbar slider. It might not be pretty, but it does make a bit of a difference. I prefer minimalistic to pretty. My husband has me pick alternate colors for his website knowing that i have a hard time with certain color combos (why do people insist on black text on grey backgrounds?? evil.)

 

Changing to a basic background does help quite a bit. Distinguishing patterns on eggs helps. Colorblind people are good at finding the small details most users take for granted. I did a run through with my father in law (omg he was bored) and asked him what stands out to him on the ones he couldnt see. He picked out several of the same details on things that i do for my own hunting needs. The only option i can think of that would involve minimal edits to the art involved would be to change the backgroun color options. I also like the idea of teeny text on the bottom corner. I know my tv can NOT handle rollover text, and that even if rollover text was added, it WOULD NOT WORK on my specific browser. (no im not talking about it so dont ask).

 

 

 

 

SUMMARY: if the artists wont allow changes to the eggs to go in effect, make a new bland basic background to make it easier to tell background from eggs

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I think it would make sense to have "colorblind option" on the account, just like we can set the number of eggs we see per page. But it wouldn't make sense to label all eggs. Only those that have one color, no pattern, and their grayscale(?) version looks exactly like another egg.

However, letter coding would be good for blind people. Or for those who simply have a slow internet connection and choose to have two (three) digit codes instead of pictures.

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SUMMARY: ... make a new bland basic background to make it easier to tell background from eggs

I would actually advocate having something like this regardless of vision problem consideration. I know I do better with backgrounds disabled -- especially when I'm tired, but even when I'm not, it speeds up my pattern recognition. And the worst vision complaint I have is that I wear glasses.

 

As for rollovers... Yes, they can definitely be useful, and yes, they can be made to work on most systems, with enough time and effort.

However, rollovers are slow. Either they're JavaScript-based and take a second to load, or they're hover-based and won't show up until after you've paused to hover for a second or two. And then they often cover the surrounding content, as well. And they only show up for a single item at a time. Right now, any non-colorblind user can look at the AP, see all of the eggs at once, and see what they all are at the same time. With a rollover, the user would be able to see that there are eggs... But they wouldn't be able to see what they were until they moused over each egg one at a time, which is very slow -- and personally, I find sites that're designed like that to be very frustrating.

[edit: Oh, and then there's the issue with rollovers being pure text. Who wants to place bets on how fast scripters will start using those to catch for them, even more easily than they can do so now with the images?]

 

If people want rollovers as another option, fine, but that shouldn't be the primary fallback option for vision difficulties.

Edited by bbik

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Guys, so long as its an OPTION that you have to turn ON, why the huge fuss? You'll never see the text on the eggs if you never turn it on.

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I would actually advocate having something like this regardless of vision problem consideration. I know I do better with backgrounds disabled -- especially when I'm tired, but even when I'm not, it speeds up my pattern recognition. And the worst vision complaint I have is that I wear glasses.

 

As for rollovers... Yes, they can definitely be useful, and yes, they can be made to work on most systems, with enough time and effort.

However, rollovers are slow. Either they're JavaScript-based and take a second to load, or they're hover-based and won't show up until after you've paused to hover for a second or two. And then they often cover the surrounding content, as well. And they only show up for a single item at a time. Right now, any non-colorblind user can look at the AP, see all of the eggs at once, and see what they all are at the same time. With a rollover, the user would be able to see that there are eggs... But they wouldn't be able to see what they were until they moused over each egg one at a time, which is very slow -- and personally, I find sites that're designed like that to be very frustrating.

[edit: Oh, and then there's the issue with rollovers being pure text. Who wants to place bets on how fast scripters will start using those to catch for them, even more easily than they can do so now with the images?]

 

If people want rollovers as another option, fine, but that shouldn't be the primary fallback option for vision difficulties.

Actually when I am hunting I just turn off pagestyle, which GETS me a white background smile.gif

 

HOWEVER - now that you mention it - I also turn off javascript, as that makes refreshes faster. Which means no rollovers.... Which means that people using a rollover options - slower anyway - would be FURTHER disadvantaged...

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I am just not sure why the letters have to be so big. Couldn't they be half that size and still be seen fine? I would also suggest that the letters not be on the scroll. If they cannot see the difference between two eggs and/or can't remember which code goes with each egg, then they can still click the egg to check descriptions, there isn't the need for quick ID that the AP has.

Edited by Nectaris

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Good idea. Some very interesting discussion here. It would take a while to learn the short forms, but I'm sure that anyone who chose to use this feature if it were to be implemented would take the time to learn. I support.

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Yeah, well, since when do eggs fall under that category? They don't even get credit!

 

However, the way I read your comment it means "You cannot do that, no matter how good your inentions are, because I (as the artist) say so - or else...." If that is exactly what is meant, I must admit that it sounds rather selfish to me. After all, the idea is not to destroy your beautiful eggs, but to help people with a problem. Vetoing this just because you can is, well, judge for yourself.

If that was the case I would be against everything regardless. However, I have made suggestions and offered support to other suggestions which I personally agree with, just as everyone else is.

 

I brought up permissions because yes, for the more unique eggs (which is pretty much every single egg released after the colour restriction was lifted) we do own the rights to even if we're not credited on the site. And also, its a point often missed by some.

 

And as a sidenote, you really ought to read my posts for what they are instead of some kind of matyr-ish post you think it to be. If you had of done that, you'd have seen that I have agreed with an idea and supported another.

 

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After asking around a bit:

 

It seems white eggs with black font is the preferred option when it comes to colorblind friendly.

 

Now because of the whole holiday and new release issues:

 

All new releases get ? on them for the first week until tj's grow up

Holiday dragons should have a symbol.. tree, pumpkin.. whatever plus the identifying letters. New holiday release gets ?

 

 

You guys havent really considered pygmy size eggs though. How do you propose to deal with those?

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You guys havent really considered pygmy size eggs though. How do you propose to deal with those?

If the images are being changed only for this option, they can be the same size as any other egg when this option is in use, no? They could even be something like (can't be bothered to look at the existing list...) P1, P2 etc... ?

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And as a sidenote, you really ought to read my posts for what they are instead of some kind of matyr-ish post you think it to be. If you had of done that, you'd have seen that I have agreed with an idea and supported another.

Oh, I did read your post, don't think I didn't. I also stated why I think that rollovers - which you supported - are, in fact, a bad idea. Which you would have known if you had read my post. blink.gif (On a side note, wouldn't a martyr-ish post mean that you wrote that you were suffering, instead of that you're against something?)

 

If that was the case I would be against everything regardless. However, I have made suggestions and offered support to other suggestions which I personally agree with, just as everyone else is.
No, you're not doing what everyone else is, because you're pulling rank as an artist by bringing permissions into this, while you hint quite strongly at not giving yours..

 

Guys, so long as its an OPTION that you have to turn ON, why the huge fuss? You'll never see the text on the eggs if you never turn it on.
I still didn't see an answer to this question. sad.gif

 

Also, on the white eggs with text: Thuban seems to support them because she knows she cannot win against the almighty artists and their vetos. As she stated before, she can tell apart basic colors, and that would obviously help in distinguishing eggs in the AP.

 

ll new releases get ? on them for the first week until tj's grow up

Holiday dragons should have a symbol.. tree, pumpkin.. whatever plus the identifying letters. New holiday release gets ?

I don't quite agree on the holidays, because I think that the year of the release would serve well enough. After all, each kind of holiday dragon (Xmas, Vday, Halloween) only has a certain time where it can turn up in the AP, and it's impossible to mix up a snow angel (10) with a pumpkin (10) because of that.

 

However, since some artists are pulling their trump card, how about this (if the colorblind option is enabled):

The AP will have only very small links on the top to save space, and the DC logo will not be shown at all.

Now, the art will stay the same, but the letters will be above/below the egg (without obstructing it). This way, you can still use your color-discerning abilities to the best and have the acronyms to check what looks interesting/desirable/whatever to you.

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Also, on the white eggs with text: Thuban seems to support them because she knows she cannot win against the almighty artists and their vetos. As she stated before, she can tell apart basic colors, and that would obviously help in distinguishing eggs in the AP.

 

 

Dont put words in my mouth.

 

 

My reasons for prefering the white eggs has been explained. Putting text over a colored image is messy, and hard to make out when you already have color issues. Yes, i do consider the artists feelings on this, however i prefer clean white eggs because they are easier to see, dont step on toes, dont require permissions and overall are EASIEST TO IMPLEMENT. I had other ideas i was willing so sprite new eggs for but... opting for letters is easiest. Opting for letters on a basic white egg even easier.

 

I don't quite agree on the holidays, because I think that the year of the release would serve well enough. After all, each kind of holiday dragon (Xmas, Vday, Halloween) only has a certain time where it can turn up in the AP, and it's impossible to mix up a snow angel (10) with a pumpkin (10) because of that.

 

Honestly, I would be more prone to hunting without the colorblind option for holidays. The suggestion was because its an all or nothing deal. All eggs follow ONE pattern or it doesnt work. You cant have some show up regular some with letters.

 

 

Now guys: please dont start throwing rude or mean comments about the artists. Theres such a negative view on them around here. Keep in mind that the word of a few is NOT the word of all of them. Yes, skinst had some valid concerns, so did cort, however both of them were pleasant and understanding when we were pitching ideas elsewhere. The few artists i talked to seem like they support the idea, and the white egg seemed to gain more support than messing with the art did, but its because of how messy letters on /colored images/ is.

For most people, this is an option that would get turned on for like.. maybe one hour tops, just for curiosity sake. For some of us, it would be a fun hunting challenge. For others it would be a waste of the time it took to turn it on then off. For some it will be useful and others, pure fun. For those with issues with whats being suggested, please feel free to offer other ideas.

Edited by Thuban

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As an artist I really feel like the overlays really mess up the art.  I know it'd be optional, but it really distracts from the art and from the site overall.

I know that there needs to be an option for people who are colorblind, but there should be a way without destroying the images.

 

Thats why I thought (fuzzbuckets?) idea of a white (as in black outline white bucket fill paint) with black letters was better for the colorblind option.

Well, forgive me for taking one of your comments the way it reads without re-reading and memorizing the whole thread. *sigh*

 

Honestly, I would be more prone to hunting without the colorblind option for holidays. The suggestion was because its an all or nothing deal. All eggs follow ONE pattern or it doesnt work. You cant have some show up regular some with letters.

That was not what I was saying. My suggestion was to give the holiday eggs the number of the year they were released as their acronym, not giving them no acronym at all. More like this (see page 2):

user posted image

Only I messed up the year. Oops.

 

Still haven't heard about my suggestion. It would look like that (just not so badly shopped):

user posted image

 

Pros: You can still go by egg color/pattern where you feel like it. You can also use the egg sprites as a first "hint" that there is an egg you might want to grab and can easily check by looking at the acronym above. Plus, it does not change the art, avoiding any issues that might cause. *grumbles* Also, you don't have to worry about clashing colors. Hopefully, it wouldn't be hard to implement, either, but I wouldn't really know about that. (Maybe if TJ changed the pictures of the eggs to contain the egg and the acronym in its proper place? That should be easy to do, and does not really change the actual egg sprites. And it shouldn't cause any problems coding, all you'd have to do is use egg sprites set 1 (reghular) or egg sprite set 2 (with acronyms).)

 

Cons: To save space, you'd lose the comfort of hopping from the AP directly to the forums/your scroll/the biomes/the help section. However, you'd still have the small link to the main cave.

 

Edited by olympe

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You wouldnt need to lose the info at the top to do that exactly. Smaller font and building the letters into a small overlay (placing them above like that) would work nicely. Give me a few minutes I'll whip up a preview.

 

EDIT: (note EE stands for example egg, i didnt bother making others)

 

user posted image

 

 

Yo dont need letters to be that huge. Its colorblindness not blindness in general. A small little overlay tossed on top the eggs would make them about 10 px wider but same hight so would not mess up alignment by much.

Edited by Thuban

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+1 support. I'm not colorblind, but I swap between comps with different color settings often enough I STILL have trouble telling which breed a given solid green egg will be sometimes. This would help.

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The problem with this idea is that you have to save space somewhere, or people might need more than the full screen to view all 5 lines of eggs in the AP. Reducing the size of the links on top of the page seemed like the easiest solution, although we could also do without the flavor text or create a pre-AP with just flavor text and a link to the actual AP without flavor text.

 

Also, the time left (as shown under the eggs) could be shortened to something like 7d or 6d 23h, which would lose another line of text, maybe even two.

 

ETA: I know this is not about blindness, but only color blindness, which is not the same thing. However, the big letters might also work for people with impaired vision on top of the group this is aimed at.

 

On another note, the text needs to be a bit bigger, or it would be impossible to discern many of the lowercase letters.

Edited by olympe

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The problem with this idea is that you have to save space somewhere, or people might need more than the full screen to view all 5 lines of eggs in the AP. Reducing the size of the links on top of the page seemed like the easiest solution, although we could also do without the flavor text or create a pre-AP with just flavor text and a link to the actual AP without flavor text.

 

Also, the time left (as shown under the eggs) could be shortened to something like 7d or 6d 23h, which would lose another line of text, maybe even two.

 

ETA: I know this is not about blindness, but only color blindness, which is not the same thing. However, the big letters might also work for people with impaired vision on top of the group this is aimed at.

 

On another note, the text needs to be a bit bigger, or it would be impossible to discern many of the lowercase letters.

please look at my example again, i solved those issues (but dont like messing with people sprites so made my own up real quick)

 

edit: And why is font an issue? the colors are different enough that if a situation came up where we needed to have two different eggs sharing an acronym: the eggs are different enough it would quickly be figured out. This way does not effect page layout, does not involve chunks of the page being reformatted and most of all does nnot effect the eggs in any way. theres no removing art theres no having to make an entire new egg. Im perfectly happy to do up a quick overlay for any concepts that ask (though its easy enough for those who already know how) All of that text at the top is there for a reason, if it was something that could be optional it would be. I hate that font when im on my phone tongue.gif

Edited by Thuban

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Thuban, I'm afraid you quoted while I was editing... ninja.gif

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Thuban, I'm afraid you quoted while I was editing... ninja.gif

I edited to your edit. Read it, comment and we can go back to disagreeing on things tongue.gif

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Okay, so since there seems to be a bit of argueing about this option, I decided to work up an example;

 

user posted image

 

EE = Example egg.

 

There. No art being used. Big letters on eggs for the colourblind and the blind all in one. That is the idea artists support because it doesn't stuff up our art.

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As long as this would work with a screen reader so that blind people can use the AP too, awesome.

I highly doubt it would be built in. The letters would be in the image itself, not above it for the reader to pick up. Granted, I have no idea how those actually work, so...

 

 

Also: skinst, thank you. I was wondering if i needed to muck one up or not. I did the other as an example to show that if people prefer real eggs with letters it can be don small in a non clashy way, but the white option is quite a bit better. And for those sprites with extras around the sides, it would be cool to just leave those to make the commons stand out (i know probably wasnt intended, but the puddle made me giggle)

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As long as this would work with a screen reader so that blind people can use the AP too, awesome.

The problem with it working with a screen reader is that people can exploit a screen reader to write a script to click on rare eggs.

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