Tracing

[jessabelleanna]

Hello everyone! Given the whole tracing controversy that happened just last month I know this might be a touchy topic. I just want to be clear on my standpoint; you shouldn't trace other peoples work without their knowing or consent, whether a drawing or picture. That being said lets get on with it:

 

The whole event got me thinking, My family just got a puppy and I have been taking pictures of her like a madwoman and I think it would be super cool if I could turn her into a drake, even cooler if the sprite could be of the actual picture I took of her (this of course would require me to trace the picture). Seeing as how this is my puppy and I am the one who took the pictures, personally I don't think there would be an issue with tracing the picture but I'm not sure if DC's rules are no tracing no matter what. If it is, then never mind forget I brought it up, I won't do it.

 

However if something like this is okay I think it might be nice to have a section on the forum of pictures that people from DC have taken and are okay with if they are used as reference and/or traced to help make sprites.

 

Just an idea, won't be heartbroken if the answer is no, probably a more complicated matter than I think.

[Fuzzbucket]

If it's YOUR photo it is perfectly legit in terms of not being art theft. I did a whole deck of cards from my own photos. I hold the copyright on them, so I can even sell it if I like.

 

I have no idea how a thread like the one you suggest would work though, in terms of site rules.

[cyradis4]

I don't think there's a legal issue per se, but.... While I'm no artist, I think tracing for sprites in general should be strongly discouraged. Dragons are not horses or deer or dogs, and..... their bodies I don't think should line up.

 

Also, especially if the picture is available online, there's always the possibility of confusion. To me, its best just to avoid the whole mess and not trace.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[skwerl56767]

Legally speaking, I think it's fine. I believe the biggest factor in TJ's choice of switching the Valentine's dragons was actually because of legal reasons; once you submit a dragon to DC, it's copywritten by the site, and if you're art is too close to other, already-copywritten works, well... we already know how that ended up.

 

That aside though, I have to echo Cyradis that not tracing the photos would probably be the best decision anyway, even if they are YOUR photos that AREN'T copywritten, and I say this because it will help you grow as an artist to understand the shapes you are creating by study and not with preexisting images. Although yes, "dragon versus dog anatomy" is also a factor.

With that said, it's no problem at all to post the photos to elaborate on the concept, or to practice by tracing, or even to post your art that you made with tracing with the photos and not have either copywritten (the legal stuff really plays the biggest part). ~Removed; I don't want this conversation to start up here~ it really is wise to play it safe and not do any tracing at all. Plus, if you make a public thread that is subject to public criticism, there's a lot lower chance that TJ would suspect tracing should someone pull up a stock photo of a similar-looking dog in a similar-looking pose (and quite frankly, that's ridiculous anyway ).

 

As for the thread idea, I think something similar already exists in the Sprite Practice Thread, but something similar for non-pixel-art would be nice. o: Something to think about...

Edited March 2, 2017 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Fiona]

If you are tracing a picture you took which you legally could take you have the legal rights to it and are fine to trace it. However, that said, I think a thread like you're suggesting has a number of issues that make it problematic.

 

For one, just because you took a photo doesn't automatically mean you can do anything you want with it. In some cases there could be restrictions on the use of photos you took. Example: I live relatively near a botanical garden that puts on a tropical butterfly exhibit every spring. Right in the pamphlet you get when you go is a legal restriction that any photographs you take while at the gardens is prohibited from being used except for personal use. That means I cannot legally use the photos I take there as references for sprite work or paintings. How would the site be able to police that, and insure that people were posting photos that they legally could post to use as references? Plus I think it would be difficult to make sure they were in fact only posting photos they had taken themselves.

 

All that in addition to the whole anatomy things and everything mentioned already.

[jessabelleanna]

I don't think there's a legal issue per se, but.... While I'm no artist, I think tracing for sprites in general should be strongly discouraged. Dragons are not horses or deer or dogs, and..... their bodies I don't think should line up.

The whole idea with tracing my dog (assuming I (can and) end up doing it and it ends up on DC) is so that when I look at the sprite I can be "that is an actual picture I took of my dog!" kind of making it mean something special for me specifically. Like that's "literally" my dog! of course I would change a bit from the picture (make neck/tail longer, add wings/horns,etc.) but I would keep the face and the body the same, It would be a dragon but also my dog.

 

 

 

Legally speaking, I think it's fine. I believe the biggest factor in TJ's choice of switching the Valentine's dragons was actually because of legal reasons; once you submit a dragon to DC, it's copywritten by the site, and if you're art is too close to other, already-copywritten works, well... we already know how that ended up.

 

Yea the whole idea of having a bunch of pictures that are okay to trace was mainly so if something like what happened on valentines day did happen again they would have hopefully traced from the pictures where consent was given on the site so it wouldn't be an issue.

 

For one, just because you took a photo doesn't automatically mean you can do anything you want with it. In some cases there could be restrictions on the use of photos you took. Example: I live relatively near a botanical garden that puts on a tropical butterfly exhibit every  spring. Right in the pamphlet you get when you go is a legal restriction that any photographs you take while at the gardens is prohibited from being used except for personal use. That means I cannot legally use the photos I take there as references for sprite work or paintings. How would the site be able to police that, and insure that people were posting photos that they legally could post to use as references? Plus I think it would be difficult to make sure they were in fact only posting photos they had taken themselves.

 

All that in addition to the whole anatomy things and everything mentioned already.

 

Aha! like I said its probably more complicated than I thought. I don't know how the site could "screen" for something like that. Although I think you could still use it as a reference. Just not sketch it?

[Fiona]

There's a vast difference between using something as a reference and tracing. If using as a reference the picture is never on the same canvas as your sprite. You're just looking at it to get an idea of how something should be drawn.

 

On your photo, keeping the face and body the same but changing the neck and adding wings would result in something that doesn't look like a dragon. It would look like a dog with a few dragon features tacked on. That's not really acceptable for release.

 

A better way to do it is to think about what it is that you really like about the photo. Is it the pose? The look on the dog's face? Then draw a dragon with that thing in mind. It would still be special to you if chosen for release. You'd still know your dog was the inspiration.

[Pokemonfan13]

Another problem is you said it's a puppy. Baby animals have very different proportions than adult animals. Your puppy's head is bigger, it's paws are bigger, it's legs are shorter and thicker than an adult dog, proportionally. (think about how you can tell the difference between a puppy and an adult miniature dog that's the same size) Even discounting everything else, a puppy would not make a good adult dragon. You -might- be able to get away with your puppy being the basis for the hatchling, since that is also a baby. However, you would still be better off using the photo you took as a freehand reference, not tracing it.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Pokemonfan13

[Kovia]

The biggest issue I see is that this simply isn't TJ's call. He has to abide by the copyright laws, same as the rest of us. And that applies to the sprites he puts on his site. All it takes is one lawsuit to bring the whole thing toppling down.

 

Also note that a reference and tracing are two completely different things. Just about every artist uses references. When I was in school we'd often spend a good chunk of the first class of a project just googling stuff. You should always freehand rather than trace or use some sort of shape tool, it just ends up looking better in the long run.

[jessabelleanna]

On your photo, keeping the face and body the same but changing the neck and adding wings would result in something that doesn't look like a dragon. It would look like a dog with a few dragon features tacked on. That's not really acceptable for release.

I think there is a little debate in that area, for instance there is the Horse Dragon, yulebuck, waterhorse, and dark green dragon which look less traditionally dragon than others. Mainly saying since dragons are a mythological species, what they look like is up for debate. And I think the type of dragon I'm going for gives a little more leeway, It would be a DC drake which are described as dog-like and I would give the sprite all the set characteristics for DC drakes.

 

A better way to do it is to think about what it is that you really like about the photo. Is it the pose? The look on the dog's face? Then draw a dragon with that thing in mind. It would still be special to you if chosen for release. You'd still know your dog was the inspiration.

Yes very true, it would just be something a little extra is all I'm saying. I also have yet to attempt it so I'm also not 100% sure on how it would look.

 

Another problem is you said it's a puppy. Baby animals have very different proportions than adult animals. Your puppy's head is bigger, it's paws are bigger, it's legs are shorter and thicker than an adult dog, proportionally. (think about how you can tell the difference between a puppy and an adult miniature dog that's the same size) Even discounting everything else, a puppy would not make a good adult dragon. You -might- be able to get away with your puppy being the basis for the hatchling, since that is also a baby. However, you would still be better off using the photo you took as a freehand reference, not tracing it.

Yes the pictures I have now would be used for the hatchling. I was thinking of this as a longer term project taking pictures of my dog as she grows up.

Edited March 2, 2017 by jessabelleanna

[Odeen]

I think there is a little debate in that area, for instance there is the Horse Dragon, yulebuck, waterhorse, and dark green dragon which look less traditionally dragon than others. Mainly saying since dragons are a mythological species, what they look like is up for debate. And I think the type of dragon I'm going for gives a little more leeway, It would be a DC drake which are described as dog-like and I would give the sprite all the set characteristics for DC drakes.

I would caution anyone against using very very old dragon breeds as justification for new ones. Standards have changed, supply has increased. Those breeds would likely be passed over as not draconic enough in the present day.

[Natayah]

I think your best bet, if you decide your skill level is good enough or a good enough start to post a drawn reference or sprite your own dragon for a dragon request thread, just start the thread. I don't feel you need to announce "I am basing this work on a specific picture I took of my dog - Ok everybody now knows that, I just want to be clear this is based on *My* picture of *my* dog that *I* took on 1/1/2017" because no one really cares nor does it matter.

 

Now if you want to make a note that you based the dragon on your puppy (people announce/post what inspires them to start/draw all the time), and if you want to post a picture of your puppy so other people can see your reference or if you want to use it as a reference, well then - that is fine. No one is going to think you made up a story about owning a puppy and it is really someone else's dog with some random picture you found on the internet. Even if you did, as long as it is just a reference, that would be fine, although weird that you made up that story. And it might cast some negative light on your project, but that would be dealt with at that point in time.

 

Otherwise, if you just want to share pictures of your puppy before you share your artwork in process, there are plenty of threads we have here to do that. We have plenty of threads for you to posts pics of your puppy and practice drawing, and plenty of places to post a dragon request submission to work on a project on a dragon based on your puppy. But... I have to agree that an irl animal, specifically a photo you want to use so the dragon looks like the animal, isn't going to be helpful in making it look like a "dragon". Which makes it less likely to actually get released. But you do you. Just remember a mod has to approve it. So I'd maybe focus your creative energy on creating the concept rather than what you want to base the sprite/art on. Since you've already decided, it's time to start planning ideas on fleshing out the concept so you can get an ok to have it worked on in public as a Dragon Submission Request for the site.

 

tl;dr: No one really is hung up on this "specific" situation ever and I think you are overly concerned and should focus your creative energy elsewhere. But I get asking, but no worries, go do your thing. I'd be more concerned about asking for dragon concept, spriting, art, dragon creation advice than this.

[Confused Cat]

(I started writing this when the most recent posts were about whether a dragon should have legs that look like an existing animal's legs.)

 

I wonder what would have happened if jessabelleanna had just drawn a picture inspired by the photo, or even traced parts of the dog, and added dragon features without telling us anything about the dog. If the art was good (up to current DC standards), I imagine many of us would not say "uh, it's a dog with some dragon features", but rather "ooh, cute, this dragon looks like a dog, I want seventy!"

 

And even the puppy proportions might not be a problem (if the intent had been to base the adult dragon on the puppy):

 

There's that Simpsons episode where they look at that cute sheep, and then there is an even cuter one that looks like the cutest little lamb ever... but then there is a third one that is even cuter and even more baby-like, and immediately the second one does not look like a baby anymore compared to that third one. It's all relative.

 

So what I meant to say was, in my opinion an adult dragon could absolutely have a body that closely resembles a puppy. It would simply be that dragon breed's build.

 

 

(Edit: fixed language)

Edited March 2, 2017 by Confused Cat

[Daydreamer09]

When it comes to tracing, there's a time and place for it. A lot of people discourage it, however there is really no harm in it so long as either 1)You have permission from the original creator, 2) It is your own picture or 3) You are using it in a purely educational, noncommercial way and little to no one will see it.

 

There's a technique in animation called rotoscoping where reference video is literally drawn over. A lot of animators have used the technique such as Don Bluth and to even some extent, Disney.

 

If you ask me, tracing over things is a good way to get a feel for the 'gesture' of something (for lack of a better word). In the past I've had art teachers that asked their students to trace over people in magazines and breakdown their body into shapes. In that way images are used more as reference. Tracing over something in that regard is great for learning anatomy.

 

But tracing exactly from photos/video can make your work feel rigid. With the animation/rotoscoping example, the movie Don Bluth made with rotoscoping felt stiff, rigid and moved too mechanically.

 

My personal suggestion to you is use tracing as a learning tool if anything. 2D reference isn't bad, but really the best way to draw something is from life if you can. Life drawing is always best. Course there are no real dragons, but the anatomy for them comes from real world critters.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Daydreamer09

[Obscure_Trash]

You can share your photography in Original Works. If you wish to offer your stuff as references, that would be fine to note in your OW thread. If it became a bigger thing, we could re-discuss a separate section for it at that time. However, since there are plenty of other resources to draw from, I'm not too worried about it at the moment.

 

If you wanted to do your own sprite - for fun - of your dog straight off the picture, that would be fine.

 

DC sprites, however, should be 100% originally drawn work. While spriting from a sketch is part of the process, any sketches are drawn with this fact in mind, and sprites are made open to edits and changes so that the anatomy still works. So when you depend on tracing, you can end up with some really "Frankensteined"-looking anatomy. Dog pics can be a good reference (depending on the dragon you're creating), but dog and dragon anatomy are not exactly the same and tracing a dog photo to end up with a dragon could end up with a creature that really isn't anatomically sound or all that draconic.

 

I think Daydreamer had an excellent post on the time and place for tracing and its pitfalls in finished work.

 

Considering all of the above, I am going to go ahead and close this thread. tl;dr Please only submit completely originally drawn work to DC for consideration. No tracing, even from your own photography.