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irrelevantindigo

Reworking the Dragon Request Sub-forum

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Alright so there's been a lot of talk over the past while about how dragon requests work or don't work and the idea of reworking it.

I'm wondering what the community thinks so I'm starting this thread so everyone's thoughts can be gathered in one place.

I am particularly interested in hearing the in-cave artists, help mods, and Sock's thoughts as they deal with dozens of dragon requests.

But of course, I want to hear everyone's thoughts.

 

However, I'm not looking to start an argument. People are passionate about art. I understand. But keep this thread objective and straightforward.

 

--

 

Change of attitude in the Dragon Request Section (and a way to make it happen or to enforce it):

• Looking to improve your art, not arguing with or ignoring the critiquer

• Respecting in-cave artists. Period.

• Requesting a dragon ONLY when your intention is to do the work involved to create it or seek out artists who WANT to help you.

 

Better Communication:

• Clear rejection of concepts – More communication with TJ about why a concept is rejected so that people learn from the mistakes of the past so they don't get repeated.

• A more efficient way to attain timely critique, so a concept does not move forward without being checked

 

New Positions /Position Changes:

• “Art Approvers” – Much liked RP Approvers. People who are not in-cave artists, but still have the job of helping move the Dragon Request section along.

• A new method for becoming an in-cave artist so that when a dragon request is cave-ready, but not all the artists are yet, the request is still viable for the cave.

 

(One or Two) New Subsections / Higher Standards for Concepts / New Submission Limits:

• More sub-sections to help divide concepts from in-progress requests.

Sub-section ideas: concepts/sketches, spritework, polishing / final critique, completed section, revamps and reworks.

Because there are people who have awesome ideas and they need artists. And then there are artists who have awesome ideas and need crit and partners in art.

If artists want to help the concept idea they can, but constant bumps of artless or minimal sketch concepts is overwhelming to everyone.

• Fewer concepts being accepted into the Dragon Request section due to issues-- viability or lack of a sketch/references.

• New permanent submission limits.

Limit Ideas: A limit of one request every six months per person, with a limit of five requests total per person in the Dragon Request section, Always limiting a person to two requests at a time

 

Periodic Completed List Clear-Outs.

 

Regular closing and opening the Dragon Request section to better manage the influxes of requests.

 

Having an active thread or chat/discord (where you can view chat history) that is just for getting constructive criticism on your work.

DC's Unofficial Discord can be found here. There is a channel specifically for receiving critique.

 

An application-only mentorship project run by the in-cave artists.

 

Open all sketches and sprites to redlining/drawing over:

• Make critiquing other's work easier and quicker by opening all sketches and sprites to redlining/drawing over without needing permission from the artists & Credit MUST be given to the critiquer if the redlines are DIRECTLY SPRITED OVER OR COPIED; unless the critique says otherwise

 

Continuing to update the Complete Guide to Dragon Requests (eventually/gradually) so people have a better understanding of how the DR works and what is expected.

s added beside things that have been addressed.

Let me know if I missed anything.

 

--

 

For anyone who wants to check this out these mentioned topics:

 

Sock's new thread, discussing dragon concepts

So I thought, a lot of you guys probably have some random and partially fleshed out ideas running around you're never going to suggest, so let's share them with each other! Let's see what sort of ideas we all have. Let's have fun gushing about each other's ideas and letting them inspire ideas of our own!

 

The Sprite Practice Thread

As was suggested by dragonsong, we've decided to make a thread compiled of sketches, and half done sprites for newer artists to practice on.

Anyone may spriteline, edit, color, or shade these for PRACTICE ONLY.

Edited by irrelevantindigo

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Hmm, I'm not quite sure what to make of the rework. If the goal is indeed to make public dragon requests more likely to get released, then kudos to everyone involved with the change. If, however, it's more like a way to get people to rework stuff only to vanish into oblivion again, I'm not fond of it. I guess the future will show which way DR takes, so I'll just have to wait to find out. I'm not holding my breath for public concepts getting released more often, though.

 

In any case, shouldn't this go in Site Discussion?

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From what I have read - DR isn't something I follow a whole lot - something that would help would be for artists to be TOLD unequivocally if their dragon is not going to make it into the cave. I gather some people feel that they have work sitting there that they cannot use elsewhere, and that makes them cross.

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Thanks Dingo :'D

 

I'd like to see:

 

- Periodic, perhaps biannual CL wipes. I think things were improving on this front, but the more defined a timeline, the better. One of the biggest frustrations of submitting a dragon here is having to watch it sit for years, unused, wondering when the heck you'll either be approved or given back your concept to try again or take elsewhere. Having a dragon in the cozy mystic land of approved for years is very different from not knowing if it's even wanted at all, but not being able to do anything in the meanwhile.

 

- PLEASE EXPLAIN HOLIDAY REQUEST RULES BETTER. Is there a timeline for sending them in? Do new artists need to be around to sign the artist agreement slip? Should we send the slip in with the request? I've asked various holiday spriters and everyone and their mom seems to have a different answer on it.

 

- Somewhat related, but I think it would make a lot of sense to ask people to submit artist's agreements somewhere upon completion of a topic, rather than upon being approved. Now this WON'T be an issue if regular CL wipes are initiated, but if they aren't, then time after time you see people vanishing becuase it's been years since a topic was finished and then whoopsie, whole thing has to be done over, even when the artist presumably would have given permission because why would they do the concept if they didn't want their art used.

 

- More communication between official artists and new, where needed. For example, the vampire update thread has been around quite a long time, so it would've been nice to see either the people behind the revamp help them or let them know things were underway so their time wouldn't be wasted. There is a strong feeling that only a handful of TJ's favorite artists get 99% of releases and keeping hard working people in the dark doesn't help that impression. Even if some secrecy was meant to be kept, why couldn't the artists secretly working on the update have "coincidentally" shown up in the thread to help give advice and make sure things were going to be consistent?

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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Honestly, having more releases more frequently would help with the backlog of requests. Twice a month would be fantastic, there was so many dragons waiting to be used for so long. I do hate how many of them seem to sit for forever. I saw the completed list and it had many wonderful, unique dragons on it that sat there for 2-3 years or more. I do not understand why the requests section was even open if so many was sitting there waiting to be released.

 

If they don't need anymore requests for a bit/are overwhelmed with requests, they should shut the area down for new requests and let all old ones be completed. Afterwards, there needs to be a approved/denied post right off the bat, that way the person can either attempt a rework (absolutely, 100% NEEDS to be stated if they should attempt a rework or not) or take the concept elsewhere. People have spent hours, days, weeks even sometimes months on a concept to just have it sit there waiting with no clue as to what is going on it seems. Why have requests open if that is going to be what happens to the majority?

 

A thing that could happen, and I'm not sure even I agree with, is that the in-cave artists become official artists and only they can work on concepts as those would more likely get approved and used. It would suck, but at least concepts would not be stuck in the abyss for years. There should also be ways that people can try out to become an in-cave artist. Maybe through some kind of contest/topic being open for new artists, they can send work into an account to be judged by TJ & the other artists. A way to announce a the winners would be through releasing that dragon with the next release after a post says they have gone through all the PMs for it.

 

Understand that the last paragraph is just a THOUGHT, nothing even I could 100% support as it would cut a vast majority of amazing concepts out. I don't want/need this turning into a argument, so please keep in mind it's just a idea on how to stem the tide of dragon requests. Something definitely does need to be done with the sheer amount of dragons still waiting to this day to be released. I'd be more happy overall that the requests section gets shut down until the list is cut down/released significantly that way nothing lingers for to long. Would it suck for the artists that have many awesome ideas to be released? Yes, it would. At least this way it wouldn't pile up.

Edited by demonicvampiregirl

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- PLEASE EXPLAIN HOLIDAY REQUEST RULES BETTER. Is there a timeline for sending them in? Do new artists need to be around to sign the artist agreement slip? Should we send the slip in with the request? I've asked various holiday spriters and everyone and their mom seems to have a different answer on it.

The rules for that are in the DR guide:

Final holiday sprites can be PM'd or emailed to TJ09. There is no time limit on when to send holiday sprites/descriptions, but at least two weeks before the holiday is suggested as the latest if you are not an in cave spriter. Non-in-cave spriters will need to send a signed copy of the artist agreement along with their art.

I do want more detailed information of how the process of selection and artist notification goes, though. Will you still get notified that your dragon was chosen if you signed your initials to grant automatic permission for all future dragons, for example?

 

Also, support the regular approval idea, though I think that should be the deadline instead of an 'all dragons should be rejected/approved at the same date' thing. For example, if it's a biannual occurrence and a concept was finished 5 months before the next cleanup date, it should be able to be approved before that date if TJ has no second thoughts about approving it.

Another problem is that this may make concepts privately sent stay longer in limbo because TJ has to spend his time on the public ones. In-cave artists' concepts probably won't be affected that much, but non in-cave artists' probably will.

 

 

I'm really happy about all of the recent changes made to improve DR, I hope it keeps on improving <3

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So I just checked and 22 of the last 36 releases (two years worth) have featured Pie, Odeen, Birdz, or Infinis. That's, uh. That's kind of ridiculous, even if they are all amazing spriters. So while I think the best thing to do, especially with the DR overhauls, would be to simply add more new spriters--if that won't happen then like Demon I'd almost rather see the whole section process for new artists overhauled, just so the work stops going to waste. But mostly I'd rather just see more new artists. SHAKE IT UPPP. wink.gif

 

@Demon: rather than double monthly releases I'd rather just see 3-4 breeds released on average instead of the usual 1-2, which achieves the same thing essentially while being less disruptive to people's plans. Maybe double releases on some holiday months would work, though--with Halloween on a 31st and Christmas a 25th there's plenty of time to slip in a new release at the month's start without harming holiday stuff, and it'd help keep holidays from taking over three months of releases every year.

 

@Sky: the artist's agreement talks about having to be submitted like 90 days before a release can be used, though. If things are different for holidays that should be clarified.

 

And yah quicker approvals or rejections would be great, I just wanted to ensure there were some bare minimum guidelines, too :3

 

 

 

 

 

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So I just checked and 22 of the last 36 releases (two years worth) have featured Pie, Odeen, Birdz, or Infinis. That's, uh. That's kind of ridiculous, even if they are all amazing spriters. So while I think the best thing to do, especially with the DR overhauls, would be to simply add more new spriters--if that won't happen then like Demon I'd almost rather see the whole section process for new artists overhauled, just so the work stops going to waste. But mostly I'd rather just see more new artists. SHAKE IT UPPP. wink.gif

 

@Demon: rather than double monthly releases I'd rather just see 3-4 breeds released on average instead of the usual 1-2, which achieves the same thing essentially while being less disruptive to people's plans. Maybe double releases on some holiday months would work, though--with Halloween on a 31st and Christmas a 25th there's plenty of time to slip in a new release at the month's start without harming holiday stuff, and it'd help keep holidays from taking over three months of releases every year.

 

@Sky: the artist's agreement talks about having to be submitted like 90 days before a release can be used, though. If things are different for holidays that should be clarified.

 

And yah quicker approvals or rejections would be great, I just wanted to ensure there were some bare minimum guidelines, too :3

Yeah, that'd be nice as well! I just want more dragons. xd.png I got several I gotta catch yet but I nearly got all of them as is.

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So I just checked and 22 of the last 36 releases (two years worth) have featured Pie, Odeen, Birdz, or Infinis. That's, uh. That's kind of ridiculous, even if they are all amazing spriters. So while I think the best thing to do, especially with the DR overhauls, would be to simply add more new spriters--if that won't happen then like Demon I'd almost rather see the whole section process for new artists overhauled, just so the work stops going to waste. But mostly I'd rather just see more new artists. SHAKE IT UPPP. wink.gif

Same here since I've been trying my hand at sketches/spriting. I'm on mobile so I'm not very good at the spriting part wink.gif

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Okay so here are some of my thoughts about DR.

 

Firstly I would say that a problem with DR is the overall culture. People seem to think that getting the concept past that first mod posting review means they are basically already released. The attitude when someone comes and points out something illogical in a concept or a problem with the art there is a very strong push back. When I was in DR it was a totally different feeling. People were very open to changing and working on their concept - even the most integral parts. Final critique has been helping with this however.

 

Another problem right now is that every concept has to be special. It has to have alts, or a dropping/breeding mechanic, etc.

It's okay to submit dragons that are just normal dragons . Not every dragon can be the most X or the best Y.

user posted image

 

There also seems to be the thought that everything that is made in private is released. I obviously can't speak a ton about private but as for me the vast majority of what I make will never be released or will take a while to be released. You know the Sinii Krai? I made those in 2010. So the way you picture that section might be a bit different than the way it actually is. Also those artists that everyone loves to bring up every. single. time. this is talked about? They have a very high rate that they make art at. Also another thing to consider is that where in DR 1 out of every 10 concepts are viable (if not 1 in 15), these artists are making nearly every concept viable. And by that I mean the level of quality of the art and the concept itself.

 

Regarding Vamps, I'm not going to comment on how it was done but again there seems to be a misunderstanding that the users were let to waste their time. I personally didn't know that a decision had been made on what was being used until the update happened.

 

So while I think the best thing to do, especially with the DR overhauls, would be to simply add more new spriters--if that won't happen then like Demon I'd almost rather see the whole section process for new artists overhauled, just so the work stops going to waste. But mostly I'd rather just see more new artists. SHAKE IT UPPP.

Also I understand that users want their art released. I really do. But DC is unique in that most other sites have staff artists and everything runs just fine. Maybe it's best to go in that direction? I don't know, maybe. It would keep quality control up, that's for sure. The VAST majority of people in DR aren't ready in my opinion, judging by the quality of their art.

Edited by Corteo

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@Corteo I think the reason people can get so annoyed with crit isn't the crit itself so much as when it comes. I've personally experienced this several times:

 

> Ask for sketch crit. Crickets. Month passes.

> Sprite lines. Ask for sprite line crit. Crickets. Month passes.

> Final sprite. Ask for final sprite crit. Crickets. Month passes.

> Ask concept to be moved. TWO DOZEN PEOPLE APPEAR and decry your product as garbage that needs to be redone from the sketch level.

 

It's very frustrating ;___; I almost wonder if concepts that use sketches should have an initial crit session, too, since it seems 90% of issues crop up at that stage.

 

I do concur that a lot of art in DR used to not be up to snuff; I remember my favorite dragons from an age ago were called like, Aeon or Aether dragons and I loved them back in the day when dorsals / sky wings / vampires and stuff first came out, but obviously they aged very badly over the years into something that was just unusable. But in light of the new DR guidelines, where everything that hits the CL SHOULD be cave quality, I would like to see a noticeable upswing in new blood over the next few years. Don't get me wrong; I like the current in cave artists very muchly. I want to see more of their stuff. But I wanna see more of other people's stuff, too! ;w;

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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From what I have read - DR isn't something I follow a whole lot - something that would help would be for artists to be TOLD unequivocally if their dragon is not going to make it into the cave. I gather some people feel that they have work sitting there that they cannot use elsewhere, and that makes them cross.

THIIIIS. I have a concept that I've been waiting to hear from TJ back about for over a year. I'm pretty sure it's not viable, but I don't know because I've heard absolutely nothing about it!

 

If it's not viable, I just want to be told, even if it's a form letter. It's not fair to my collaborators to have to wait, either. Just tell us it's not viable.

 

e: For context, this is not the Anomals, which I've already given up on. This is a concept that I emailed to TJ.

Edited by Guillotine

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@Corteo I think the reason people can get so annoyed with crit isn't the crit itself so much as when it comes. I've personally experienced this several times:

 

> Ask for sketch crit. Crickets. Month passes.

> Sprite lines. Ask for sprite line crit. Crickets. Month passes.

> Final sprite. Ask for final sprite crit. Crickets. Month passes.

> Ask concept to be moved. TWO DOZEN PEOPLE APPEAR and decry your product as garbage that needs to be redone from the sketch level.

 

It's very frustrating ;___; I almost wonder if concepts that use sketches should have an initial crit session, too, since it seems 90% of issues crop up at that stage.

 

I do concur that a lot of art in DR used to not be up to snuff; I remember my favorite dragons from an age ago were called like, Aeon or Aether dragons and I loved them back in the day when dorsals / sky wings / vampires and stuff first came out, but obviously they aged very badly over the years into something that was just unusable. But in light of the new DR guidelines, where everything that hits the CL SHOULD be cave quality, I would like to see a noticeable upswing in new blood over the next few years. Don't get me wrong; I like the current in cave artists very muchly. I want to see more of their stuff. But I wanna see more of other people's stuff, too! ;w;

That is a good point about the crit and I've noticed it too. Though from being on the other side I can say that a reason a lot of us don't say something is because people will fight us unless we absolutely love everything. A lot of people only listen at final crit. So unfortunately because of experiences like those people prefer to wait.

 

Sorry for any typos. Writing from a tiny phone screen.

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I think the best way to ease the frustration that the users are feeling is the rejection/approval deadline, for both private and public releases? I have no idea how many private concepts TJ gets, though, and this thread is for DR, so I'll talk only about the DR section for now.

TJ has said that PMing every single person related to the rejected concept is a huge ordeal and I agree, so here's a way rejection could work:

-If the concept is good but the art/design could use some work, kick back to DR.

-If the concept itself is not something he wants to release, delete thread entirely.

That way he wouldn't have to PM everyone while still getting the message across.

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That is a good point about the crit and I've noticed it too.  Though from being on the other side I can say that a reason a lot of us don't say something is because people will fight us unless we absolutely love everything. A lot of people only listen at final crit.  So unfortunately because of experiences like those people prefer to wait.

 

Sorry for any typos.  Writing from a tiny phone screen.

 

I think k we need to have communication in the DR. It's not fair if we literally wait a month, poking and proding the requests, waiting for crits and then when we do finally ask it to be moved and a thousand people just show up and state what's wrong with it.

 

I know people can't be everywhere at once but at least type a post saying 'PM a reminder to crit cause I'm busy right now and can't state what's wrong with it' because we concept developers can see that you are looking at our sketches/sprites (unless your anonymous) and then we get annoyed that nothing gets said until the last minute. Then we're like, "WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY ANYTHING WHEN YOU LOOKED AT IT A MONTH AGO!?"

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I'm going to agree with everything Corteo is saying, and add this.

 

The sheer volume of concepts and art being produced means that the vast majority of it will never be used. That includes what's done in the private area. My view is that TJ has an obligation to the site to choose the best of what's offered. The four artists being named as "getting preferential treatment" simply produce exceptional art at a high volume. Not everything they do gets picked for release either. Far from it.

 

As for DR, the atmosphere there usually makes me not want to say anything at all, so I tend not to even look unless a thread is up for final crit. You guys gush all over each others sketches and sprites, and if and when one of us points out problems we are often contradicted or ignored. It was worse before the current methods of moving concepts was implemented. Then in-cave artists were viewed as having no more weight on crit than non-in-cave artists so if one of us said something negative we were basically told to myob. The final review process now gives in-cave artists' crit a little more weight but that attitude of disagreement still often shows up. I know one concept in particular where concrit was given that was largely negative and the OP and artists involved essentially said, "We think it's fine so we're not changing it." Why should in-cave artists even bother to try to help when we're treated like that?

 

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Definitely some thumbs down if the thing won't be released and why (sprite quality and what about it? design? alts? some mechanics? they don't want YOU amont the in-cave spriters no mattter what you create? etc.).

 

Artist agreement should be signed up before the thread is moved, even before it is moveable to avoid the redoing of great sprites just because the artist can't be reached anymore (they could even die in the meantime tbh, things happen). I don't mean it should be required sosoon but it shoudl be submittable if the artist feels they should fill it before the concept is finalised, e.g. when they know they won't be able to return for the sign-up any later... And by the time the thread is moved, all artists should have submitted the form.

 

More releases or a bit bigger ones. Either smaller every 2 weeks or bigger every month AND in mid January. If monthly, then absoultely not fewer than 2 breeds at a time with average of 3-4. If every 2 weeks then average of 2(making min 3-4 new breeds a month). (but the exclusive flods should last at least 24h, not like the latest 2, for mere few hours... because timezones!)

 

More new bloood and less restrictive attitude against letting new people in. The percent of in-cave vs new artists speaks for itself... True that the most frequently released in-cave artists are very good, probably best, but some of the not released artists out there aren't making any worse quality sprites but they aren't making it into the cave even for years either because the spriters community is so closed or because sb from the in-cave artists doesn't like the non-released artist as a person or whatever, not shure what it is... It just doesn't feel at all open for new people? If the attitude can't be changed then at least the spriters who won't be accepted in should be informed about that so they wouldnt' waste anymore of their time here and coudl focus e.g. on other games or whatever art projects not related ot DC.

 

 

In general pretty much what has been already said?

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> Ask for sketch crit. Crickets. Month passes.

> Sprite lines. Ask for sprite line crit. Crickets. Month passes.

> Final sprite. Ask for final sprite crit. Crickets. Month passes.

> Ask concept to be moved. TWO DOZEN PEOPLE APPEAR and decry your product as garbage that needs to be redone from the sketch level.

Honestly, this is how I feel about it all.

 

I greatly appreciate how difficult the job must be of constantly monitoring how every single concept needs to be, and I honestly salute all the in-cave artists who are relied on for the final word. I also realise that there are only a handful of in-cave spriters who have to review everything before it can be deemed completed, and that it must be stressful and hard to keep up with.

 

However, would this be fixed if periodic checkups were made on concepts? It's frustrating for the OP as well as artists in the concept when a tsunami of crits are given right when the concept is about to be completed - especially when these often involve an overview of the entire concept, e.g. Wax Dragons. I understand the sentiment behind it, but perhaps if in-cave artists were to check up after the milestones ADP listed, that could be less frustrating for the concept-ers, and obviously there'd be less backlash and protesting against the in-cavers?

[i'm making the situation sound like the Jets and the Sharks lmao I'm sorry]

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I think the best way to ease the frustration that the users are feeling is the rejection/approval deadline, for both private and public releases? I have no idea how many private concepts TJ gets, though, and this thread is for DR, so I'll talk only about the DR section for now.

TJ has said that PMing every single person related to the rejected concept is a huge ordeal and I agree, so here's a way rejection could work:

-If the concept is good but the art/design could use some work, kick back to DR.

-If the concept itself is not something he wants to release, delete thread entirely.

That way he wouldn't have to PM everyone while still getting the message across.

The flaw of deletion is that the OP may be no-longer able to retrieve what was already createdafter that and can't possibly use it on another site or whatever (ofc what they own the rights for)... the OP shold somehow get a copy of their thread then so they can possibly take the takeable things from it^^;

 

Also just because sth about the concept it to be rejected it doesn't necessairly mean that the sprites are non-useable if given an altered/another concept...

 

 

In general there coudl be a rejection form for TJ with premade possible rejection reasons TJ could just tick while rejecting a concept/sprite.

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@Fiona/Corteo: I get where you're both coming from and admittedly didn't think about it from that angle. On the other hand, with the new final review process, crit is going to be given EVENTUALLY; so since there's no avoiding it, why not give it sooner before a lot of time and effort goes to waste? Since a sign off is now required to move the concept, hopefully the combative attitude will improve as people really do need to pay attention. And yes, I know it's something I need to work on too ;3

 

And... alright this is a more personal thing, but I do wish some in cavers would be kinder with their critique. I'm not saying butts need to be kissed and no flaws need to be found. But it seems often that ten negatives about a concept will be pointed out without a single positive towards even things as general as the concept, oftentimes from multiple people. A little sugar helps the medicine go down. If people have a boss they feel only criticizes and criticizes and criticizes without ever offering a word of praise, they aren't going to feel inclined to please them, even if the crit is entirely deserved.

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Okay so here are some of my thoughts about DR.

 

Firstly I would say that a problem with DR is the overall culture. People seem to think that getting the concept past that first mod posting review means they are basically already released. The attitude when someone comes and points out something illogical in a concept or a problem with the art there is a very strong push back. When I was in DR it was a totally different feeling. People were very open to changing and working on their concept - even the most integral parts. Final critique has been helping with this however.

 

Another problem right now is that every concept has to be special. It has to have alts, or a dropping/breeding mechanic, etc.

It's okay to submit dragons that are just normal dragons . Not every dragon can be the most X or the best Y.

user posted image

 

There also seems to be the thought that everything that is made in private is released. I obviously can't speak a ton about private but as for me the vast majority of what I make will never be released or will take a while to be released. You know the Sinii Krai? I made those in 2010. So the way you picture that section might be a bit different than the way it actually is. Also those artists that everyone loves to bring up every. single. time. this is talked about? They have a very high rate that they make art at. Also another thing to consider is that where in DR 1 out of every 10 concepts are viable (if not 1 in 15), these artists are making nearly every concept viable. And by that I mean the level of quality of the art and the concept itself.

 

Regarding Vamps, I'm not going to comment on how it was done but again there seems to be a misunderstanding that the users were let to waste their time. I personally didn't know that a decision had been made on what was being used until the update happened.

 

 

Also I understand that users want their art released. I really do. But DC is unique in that most other sites have staff artists and everything runs just fine. Maybe it's best to go in that direction? I don't know, maybe. It would keep quality control up, that's for sure. The VAST majority of people in DR aren't ready in my opinion, judging by the quality of their art.

I agree with every word of this post. In my non-artist view, very many of the "completed list" were not in any way complete enough to match up to the dragons we have in cave.

 

And yes, I know people wait ages for crit and the rest. But - if it isn't coming in, maybe no-one cares enough about the dragon - and if that's the case - it probably doesn't need releasing.

 

That is a good point about the crit and I've noticed it too. Though from being on the other side I can say that a reason a lot of us don't say something is because people will fight us unless we absolutely love everything. A lot of people only listen at final crit. So unfortunately because of experiences like those people prefer to wait.

Yes indeed. The few threads I have looked at regularly, anyone that doesn't say AWESOME GIMME DERGON NAOW is shouted down with "how can you be so mean" and the like.

As Fi said:

I know one concept in particular where concrit was given that was largely negative and the OP and artists involved essentially said, "We think it's fine so we're not changing it." Why should in-cave artists even bother to try to help when we're treated like that?

 

The incave artists are damn good. VERY MANY of the people in DR - aren't. They would be wise to take the advice offered them by incave artists instead of taking a snit.

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The incave artists are damn good. VERY MANY of the people in DR - aren't. They would be wise to take the advice offered them by incave artists instead of taking a snit.

I think that may be a little harsh. Some art may not be up to DC's standard, but in that case advice and help should be offered instead of outright insulting them.

 

And as for the fact that much on the completed list wasn't up to DC's standards, I therefore agree with some of the reworking. The sense of realism and much of the shading and body shape standards have changed drastically. To avoid people slipping back into the style of old DC, would it not be useful to set up a sort of board of what is up to standard in DC, such as a section in the Dragon Request's Guide? Outlining exactly what art we should expect and in what style would probably greatly help many people and also cut down the workload during final crits.

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I agree with every word of this post. In my non-artist view, very many of the "completed list" were not in any way complete enough to match up to the dragons we have in cave.

I agree that many of the dragons in the CL was not fit for release. But that is part of the frustration: If a dragon is clearly not fit for release, why not reject it and give people a choice to drop it or retry? Why let it sit on the list for months, even years? (I know there have been many cleanups and efforts to reduce dragons in the CL and I'm grateful for it, but I have seen some very under par dragons sit in there for at least a year and that makes me wonder why. x'P)

 

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...Kinda wonder how a mentoring thread would work out? Like you can post your concept and ask for an in cave mentor to oversee the process. It'd be pretty full at first, likely not everyone would be able to get someone, but in theory the amount of people available to mentor would exponentially increase over time as the mentored artists make it in.

 

Just a random thought tongue.gif

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...Kinda wonder how a mentoring thread would work out? Like you can post your concept and ask for an in cave mentor to oversee the process. It'd be pretty full at first, likely not everyone would be able to get someone, but in theory the amount of people available to mentor would exponentially increase over time as the mentored artists make it in.

 

Just a random thought tongue.gif

I am aware that an IRC chat similar to this exists, but I'm not sure if it's for the exact same purpose? This is a good idea though!

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