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> Sexism
Kelkelen
Posted: Apr 7 2012, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE (Princess Artemis @ Apr 6 2012, 05:10 PM)
the people who are risking it all instead of keeping one fortification and making more, stronger outposts are insidiously stupid. Or worse--they are playing politics.

Playing politics... dangerous ground.

I can see how they might need to institute separate legislation for something like illegal immigrants, however, I really don't see why they'd need a separate act for lesbians or transgenders who are legal citizens. What's the alternative? Are people supposed to copy the "Violence Against Women" act word for word, except make it a version that is solely about anyone gender-queer, and then submit it? I have a feeling people would start saying "don't re-invent the wheel" and wondering why the writers didn't just modify the original act.
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Princess Artemis
Posted: Apr 7 2012, 11:46 AM
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It depends on how it's written. Is it written so as to obviously only apply to straight cisgendered women? If not, then passing an amendment somewhere or another small act that says, "HEY! That act? It applies to ALL women, stupid!" ought to be possible without putting the entire thing in danger.

That's what was done with the Constitution. Two Amendments were added that amounted to saying, "When it says People, it doesn't mean white male people, stupid!"

This post has been edited by Princess Artemis on Apr 7 2012, 11:48 AM
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Kelkelen
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 06:45 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTlmho_RovY...=endscreen&NR=1

Good video for stating clearly and succinctly what the big deal is with the hyper-sexualized portrayal of women in advertising.
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ylangylang
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 07:21 AM
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Other cases: I see this most often in "family" ads, where the female is portrayed as much more attractive and sometimes even younger than the male. Granted, this is not something that happens all the time, but I've never seen a case where the reverse happened, so..

Family picture 1
Not the old people at the front, obviously. The woman at the back is way more attractive, at least by normal standards in my country.

Family picture 2
You can't really see the guy's face, but the woman is much better known and is much more famous as an actress.
Same ad series, using the same people: Family picture 3

Another example: this one's a couple photo shoot less than a family oriented one, but these examples of the woman being a super pretty person and the man just average is abundant and I thought I should include this.
user posted image

Married couples:
Married couple 1

Married couple 2

Married couple 3

ETA:
Ads that focus on raising children-not only is the woman pregnant or having a baby in her arms, she's also hot and she raises that child by herself w/o the help of her husband while having a job. rolleyes.gif

Example one, which is part of a bigger example here. The man's shown to be busy and only shows the back of his head; however the woman's working too. Shouldn't they be dividing child care equally?
user posted image

Another example Also no dad.

Example 3 Another case where the working mom's looking at a photo of her sick child- only the mom, mind you- and she doesn't get to go home until she shows an actual picture of the kid. The gaggle of workers showing their own children being sick (implied through their body language and the speech bubbles) show that the company doesn't usually let them do this.

Example 4
Another case: The ones on the left are about raising children and family- no dad. Only the mom does all the childrearing.

This post has been edited by ylangylang on Apr 26 2012, 07:54 AM
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The Evil Doer
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:08 AM
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Yeah, its horrible how guys are portrayed in commercials, I feel sick rolleyes.gif

Are those pigs.. yup like all men

Your father is easily confused with an ass

guys are super smart

breakup

dominos pizza... when man is not man enough

you're ugly and fat but at least you can smell nice for your girl...

taking out the trash.. ohh I meant the man...

Actually laughed at most... but yeah, do discuss how sexism is horrible towards men in commercials and how we're all supposed to look like captain America, work out be athletic, successful or we'll be called scrubs and get thrown out like a common trash.... Ohh wait, my bad... its not one of those threads, carry on tongue.gif

This post has been edited by The Evil Doer on Apr 26 2012, 09:09 AM
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Wookieinmashoo
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:11 AM
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I've been kinda peeking at the thread, almost commented, but didn't.

I suddenly got reminded of a movie we watched as a class in a history/culture related class. It was one of the many movies based off the events of 9/11 in New York. I can't remember the title of the movie since so many people decided the event was a cash cow and wanted money out of it. That in itself was offensive enough, but as I'm watching the movie I noticed that we are not show the story of females on the plane, only males. There may have been one female, but the bulk of the "stories" in the movie were of males. What were those males doing? Phoning their wives who all had children and most of them had a fresh baby in arms. After the movie, I did mention this to some of the people in class and no one really noticed, not even the females. If fact the majority of the class thought it was a great movie. The movie itself, aside from the content and obvious pathetic attempt to pull at the heartstrings, was crap also. They used the idea of a mother alone, caring for her children and trading last words with her husband to shove propaganda into the faces of the audience. I knew the movie was going to be about propaganda but they hit really low with the "this mother has to care for her children ALONE" scenario.

EDIT: Going to look at the above links because I know sexism goes both ways. Also I want to move to Canada too, but you know...no money...

This post has been edited by Wookieinmashoo on Apr 26 2012, 09:13 AM
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ylangylang
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:23 AM
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QUOTE (The Evil Doer @ Apr 26 2012, 10:08 AM)
Yeah, its horrible how guys are portrayed in commercials, I feel sick rolleyes.gif

I would have agreed with that point: patriarchy is very much a strong issue that hurts men as well, at least here. For example- men are graded on how much they earn, and women are graded on how they look. So men are pressured to really work and work and work and not get any quality time with their family.

Thing is, that aspect is slowly changing, and the dialogue concerning fatherhood is changing here...but women and beauty? Nope. Nada. Zilch. Then again, we don't have maternity leave for women, why would you think they would have it for men? (We do have maternity leave, according to the law, only it's not enforced. However I still find it hypocritic that there are steps taken to ensure that fathers get quality time with their children, such as the "father's day" that lots of companies are apparently having, but almost none with the mom.)

Look, men are almost never, ever portrayed that way here like how in your examples...but we've got plenty of ads that show women and imply that looking pretty is basically the only thing that you should strive for.

Oh and those underachieving guys who can't really find a "mate"? Well, they get mail order brides, which is causing more harm to these women who are mostly from very poor third-world countries. They also found that in a survey that most of these men vent their steam online, usually by harassing female bloggers and such. (It's in my native tongue, very few of you can read it and I can't find it at the moment, sorry about that) Whereas ugly women are told to stuff it.

I would also add that this "women strive for beauty" pressure is put on girls from a very early age, which is worrying. This trend can be seen here-the boys, who are as young as 11, state that "Orcs(a derogatory name for ugly women) shouldn't wear short shorts". They also say that"if you wear short shorts you look like a censorkip.gif" but that's another point altogether.
Also, many, many ads like this one here that's basically geared towards young girls and tells them they need that oval shaped face.

Compared to this, boys don't really get the pressure to be "manly" until they're 15 or so, based on anecdotal and personal experience. Besides, our culture doesn't really celebrate macho figures any more. Yes, they tell boys to stop crying if they start to cry or whatever, but that also applies to girls...

QUOTE
I want to move to Canada too, but you know...no money...

Don't we all....*sob*

This post has been edited by ylangylang on Apr 26 2012, 09:34 AM
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Sadako
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE (ylangylang @ Apr 26 2012, 07:21 AM)
Other cases: I see this most often in "family" ads, where the female is portrayed as much more attractive and sometimes even younger than the male. Granted, this is not something that happens all the time, but I've never seen a case where the reverse happened, so..

Family picture 1
Not the old people at the front, obviously. The woman at the back is way more attractive, at least by normal standards in my country.

Family picture 2
You can't really see the guy's face, but the woman is much better known and is much more famous as an actress.
Same ad series, using the same people: Family picture 3

Another example: this one's a couple photo shoot less than a family oriented one, but these examples of the woman being a super pretty person and the man just average is abundant and I thought I should include this.
user posted image

Married couples:
Married couple 1

Married couple 2

Married couple 3

ETA:
Ads that focus on raising children-not only is the woman pregnant or having a baby in her arms, she's also hot and she raises that child by herself w/o the help of her husband while having a job. rolleyes.gif

Example one, which is part of a bigger example here. The man's shown to be busy and only shows the back of his head; however the woman's working too. Shouldn't they be dividing child care equally?
user posted image

Another example Also no dad.

Example 3 Another case where the working mom's looking at a photo of her sick child- only the mom, mind you- and she doesn't get to go home until she shows an actual picture of the kid. The gaggle of workers showing their own children being sick (implied through their body language and the speech bubbles) show that the company doesn't usually let them do this.

Example 4
Another case: The ones on the left are about raising children and family- no dad. Only the mom does all the childrearing.

Well, as to the first part: in the immortal words of Alistair Leslie Graham, that is so that people with think [the attractive women in the ads] will do you even if you is a minger. Which probably means that many advertisers think that presenting men with fantasy situations where they get super-hot wives will sell stuff. We have that too. wink.gif For some products designed for women, we get ads the other way round--Fabio, a famous male sex symbol (who is now quite old), used to hawk fat-free margarine. The women in those ads were usually pretty unrealistically attractive too though, so there's definitely a double-standard.

As to showing mostly women in ads regarding child-rearing, I imagine that the actual intent is innocuous--advertisers probably just say to themselves 'Who is buying children's cough syrup? Moms, mostly.' And then they make a commercial that they feel appeals to moms... But it does seem kind of suspicious. After enough ads like that it becomes a lot easier to think that the trend stopped being about appealing to moms and instead became a reminder to women that child-rearing is what we're supposed to be doing and we shouldn't even be watching ads for any other products.

When I point it out like that it sounds pretty insane, unfortunately, but when certain messages are extremely overplayed, people start to think strange things... :/


This post has been edited by Sadako on Apr 26 2012, 09:32 AM
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philpot123
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE (Wookieinmashoo @ Apr 26 2012, 09:11 AM)
I've been kinda peeking at the thread, almost commented, but didn't.

I suddenly got reminded of a movie we watched as a class in a history/culture related class. It was one of the many movies based off the events of 9/11 in New York. I can't remember the title of the movie since so many people decided the event was a cash cow and wanted money out of it. That in itself was offensive enough, but as I'm watching the movie I noticed that we are not show the story of females on the plane, only males. There may have been one female, but the bulk of the "stories" in the movie were of males. What were those males doing? Phoning their wives who all had children and most of them had a fresh baby in arms. After the movie, I did mention this to some of the people in class and no one really noticed, not even the females. If fact the majority of the class thought it was a great movie. The movie itself, aside from the content and obvious pathetic attempt to pull at the heartstrings, was crap also. They used the idea of a mother alone, caring for her children and trading last words with her husband to shove propaganda into the faces of the audience. I knew the movie was going to be about propaganda but they hit really low with the "this mother has to care for her children ALONE" scenario.

EDIT: Going to look at the above links because I know sexism goes both ways. Also I want to move to Canada too, but you know...no money...

Is it sexism if that's what happened? The portrayal may have been a bit one sided, but the simple fact that they displayed the reality of a soon-to-be single mother with a child to care for is not sexism.
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The Evil Doer
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE (ylangylang @ Apr 26 2012, 10:23 AM)
I would have agreed with that point: patriarchy is very much a strong issue that hurts men as well, at least here. For example- men are graded on how much they earn, and women are graded on how they look. So men are pressured to really work and work and work and not get any quality time with their family.

Thing is, that aspect is slowly changing, and the dialogue concerning fatherhood is changing here...but women and beauty? Nope. Nada. Zilch. Then again, we don't have maternity leave for women, why would you think they would have it for men? (We do have maternity leave, according to the law, only it's not enforced. However I still find it hypocritic that there are steps taken to ensure that fathers get quality time with their children, such as the "father's day" that lots of companies are apparently having, but almost none with the mom.)

Look, men are almost never, ever portrayed that way here like how in your examples...but we've got plenty of ads that show women and imply that looking pretty is basically the only thing that you should strive for.

Oh and those underachieving guys who can't really find a "mate"? Well, they get mail order brides, which is causing more harm to these women who are mostly from very poor third-world countries. They also found that in a survey that most of these men vent their steam online, usually by harassing female bloggers and such. (It's in my native tongue, very few of you can read it and I can't find it at the moment, sorry about that) Whereas ugly women are told to stuff it.

I post 7 sexist videos towards guys and your response to it is... well girls girls girls girls... thanks for proving the point, this thread might be called sexism but its not really that is it.... like I said god job, carry on.... tongue.gif
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Sadako
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE (TheEvilDoer)
Actually laughed at most... but yeah, do discuss how sexism is horrible towards men in commercials and how we're all supposed to look like captain America, work out be athletic, successful or we'll be called scrubs and get thrown out like a common trash.... Ohh wait, my bad... its not one of those threads, carry on


Ya know, we actually would be happy to hear your opinions and experiences and might even sympathize. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, though.
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ylangylang
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:36 AM
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QUOTE (The Evil Doer @ Apr 26 2012, 10:31 AM)
I post 7 sexist videos towards guys and your response to it is... well girls girls girls girls... thanks for proving the point, this thread might be called sexism but its not really that is it.... like I said god job, carry on....  tongue.gif

No, my response was, in my country sexism does hurt both sides, but it has benefited mostly men and hurt mostly women. That's not to say that it doesn't hurt men though, especially regarding parenthood. I regard fatherhood as a very special moment for both parents, and there are many men who feel left out, because they're socially motivated to basically work their asses off to feed their families, and thus have no contact whatsoever with their kids. So they don't get to connect with their kids, their wives and such, and feels like they've become a sort of a money-earning machine.

On the whole though women do lose out under a patriarchal system, which was the point that I was trying to make.

Hey, if I hated men, I would have said something like "stuff it, you don't get hurt." I did acknowledge that men do get hurt as well under a patriarchy, I just said that the victims, though, are mostly women. Not to say that men don't get to be victims, just that the overwhelming majority are women, and that it's more severe in some cases.

For example of patriarchy harming guys, at least here: they get to pay more money when they get married, they get to pay for their date, and they get to, as I've said, lose out on parenthood, and if you get sexually violated, police won't do a thing.

Patriarchy harming girls, at least here: they get fired when they get pregnant, companies don't really like hiring women(especially married women as they can get pregnant), and lookism is so prevalent that plastic surgeries are done in order to get a job as being pretty is also an asset (although what it would have at a desk job that does not get to interact with customers I wouldn't know- for those of you who don't know, in our country we're legally supposed to hand in photos along with our resume), if you get sexually violated police won't do a thing, if you're not a virgin you're a "*censorkip.gif" and if you're a single mother than you were characterized, as late as 5 years ago, as an uneducated censorkip.gif.

See?

QUOTE
But it does seem kind of suspicious. After enough ads like that it becomes a lot easier to think that the trend stopped being about appealing to moms and instead became a reminder to women that child-rearing is what we're supposed to be doing and we shouldn't even be watching ads for any other products.

Yep. When you translate the words on the photo I posted, it says tons of stuff about being a mom but not about being a dad...which I personally think is both unfair to men and women.

This post has been edited by ylangylang on Apr 26 2012, 09:50 AM
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fuzzbucket
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE (The Evil Doer @ Apr 26 2012, 02:31 PM)
I post 7 sexist videos towards guys and your response to it is... well girls girls girls girls... thanks for proving the point, this thread might be called sexism but its not really that is it.... like I said god job, carry on....  tongue.gif

I think it is more that most women and feminists who object to rampant sexism have found that there is no point trying to carry on a discussion with you, as you don't seem to get it at all. xd.png

Sure - I object to sexism in ads too - including the ones that all show MEN changing wheels and women looking helpless (I change my own - and fill my own oil too, thank you very much.) And I also object to the ones that show men as incapable of operating a washing machine and the rest.

But it is MEN who try to enforce some silly ideal of "beauty" on women and it is the perceived need to pander to such men that leads to stupid boob enhancements and the rest. Because hell, with no SILICONE in there, no man will EVER want you, right ? And ads and TV and so on all perpetrate and perpetuate this in spades.

And it is shocking how fatherhood never gets a look in, yes. No wonder MEN don't see the need to do it when all the ads shove them aside.

Typefails....

This post has been edited by fuzzbucket on Apr 26 2012, 09:48 AM
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ylangylang
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 09:55 AM
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BTW, police incompetence when dealing with domestic abuse, since no one seems to really know how bad situations are in some countries:

Here

QUOTE
According to the voice recording from the 112 emergency centre, disclosed on the 5th of April by the Gyeonggi Metropolitan Police Agency, the victim (initialled K, 28 years old) had been talking to the police on the mobile phone for more than a minute. She locked up the room she was kidnapped in and called the police (at 112) for help while the criminal (Chinese-Korean Wu, 42 years old) was negligent in guarding her.

She dialled 112 at the emergency report centre at 10.50 pm 58 seconds, on the day of the crime and talked to the policeman at work for about a minute and a half.

However, the policeman at the centre did not question her on the characteristics of the building which would help them quickly find where she was locked in, such as the structure of the house or how many floors there were. The policemen instead spent the time repeating his questions to her or asking “who is harassing you?” even though identifying the suspect was not the first thing to clarify before rescuing her.

The victim’s phone call ended following a sound of the door forced open and her voice begging the criminal for pardon. The house that the murder happened was on the ground floor of a multiplex housing, some 80 meters away from the gate of Ji-dong Primary school in the direction of Mot-gol playground, as she reported. Police sources said that it was difficult to locate the site of crime because it was surrounded by residential buildings and the primary school and the playground was one kilometre apart. They also claimed that location-tracking of a mobile phone does not identify where exactly the owner of the phone is, but only identifies the base station for the phone.


It was a horrible rape-and-murder-and-dismemberment case, where the police and the neighbors didn't intervene because they thought it was some domestic fighting. rolleyes.gif This article is actually outdated in that later, it was found that the woman was on the phone for about 7 minutes, the police officer listen to her screams and sobs for about 5 minutes and then hung up.

This sort of negligence about domestic abuse not only hurts women (both because domestic abuse is a serious thing, and because there are lots of murder/rape cases where people will do nothing because they think it's domestic abuse) but also men, as they can also be the victims of domestic abuse.

TL;DR: Patriarchy hurts both men and women, but it mostly hurts women.

This post has been edited by ylangylang on Apr 26 2012, 09:58 AM
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philpot123
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 10:00 AM
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QUOTE
But it is MEN who try to enforce some silly ideal of "beauty" on women and it is the perceived need to pander to such men that leads to stupid boob enhancements and the rest. Because hell, with no SILICONE in there, no man will EVER want you, right ? And ads and TV and so on all perpetrate and perpetuate this in spades.


Is it? Is it really the men? Which men? All men? Because I know I don't find "enhancements" attractive. You might as well go fondle a balloon, or maybe a rock. I'm not sure who's perpetuating this fake ideal, but it's certainly none of the men I know.
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ylangylang
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 10:08 AM
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QUOTE
Is it? Is it really the men? Which men? All men? Because I know I don't find "enhancements" attractive.

Most high-ups in the media business are male, and it's those people that fuzzbucket's talking about, at least that's what I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

QUOTE
You might as well go fondle a balloon, or maybe a rock.


LOL!

user posted image

This post has been edited by ylangylang on Apr 26 2012, 10:10 AM
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The Evil Doer
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 10:14 AM
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QUOTE (fuzzbucket @ Apr 26 2012, 10:45 AM)
I think it is more that most women and feminists who object to rampant sexism have found that there is no point trying to carry on a discussion with you, as you don't seem to get it at all. xd.png

Sure - I object to sexism in ads too - including the ones that all show MEN changing wheels and women looking helpless (I change my own - and fill my own oil too, thank you very much.) And I also object to the ones that show men as incapable of operating a washing machine and the rest.

But it is MEN who try to enforce some silly ideal of "beauty" on women and it is the perceived need to pander to such men that leads to stupid boob enhancements and the rest. Because hell, with no SILICONE in there, no man will EVER want you, right ? And ads and TV and so on all perpetrate and perpetuate this in spades.

And it is shocking how fatherhood never gets a look in, yes. No wonder MEN don't see the need to do it when all the ads shove them aside.

Typefails....

It's funny to me that you would say that I dont get it at all and yet in the same sentence you would say "Sure - I object to sexism in ads too - including the ones that all show MEN changing wheels and women looking helpless (I change my own - and fill my own oil too, thank you very much.) And I also object to the ones that show men as incapable of operating a washing machine and the rest"

I wonder how come you havent used the phrase I object to sexism in ads too - including the ones that all show MEN as hot half naked guys... Fuzzy, you should much less concentrate on me not getting things but a bit more on looking at yourself first, coz me when I see sexism towards women I call it the way it is, sexism towards women, you on the other hand, when you see sexism towards men your response is lack of it and going back to sexism towards women, coz basically, when you see sexism towards men, it just doesnt bug you, matter of fact Im pretty sure that deep down you're actually kinda thrilled to see it...

Just think for a sec about that commercial where all men were portrayed as pigs, no chaotic outrageous reactions from you guys (wonders why)... now imagine me posting a commercial where all girls are portrayed as cows, and at the end of it one cow turns into a cute lady holding a baby and that being a commercial for milk, saying its even better than mothers milk (which would mean that cows are women if you have missed the point) do I need to tell you how 100% of you guys would respond to that ?

That was my point....

QUOTE
But it is MEN who try to enforce some silly ideal of "beauty" on women and it is the perceived need to pander to such men that leads to stupid boob enhancements and the rest. Because hell, with no SILICONE in there, no man will EVER want you, right ? And ads and TV and so on all perpetrate and perpetuate this in spades.


I was under the impression that magazines such as Elle, Vogue, Cosmo etc are ran mainly by women and mainly for women yet whenever I gazed at them that "silly ideal of beauty" was present... enforced by women too blink.gif shocking
And last I checked there is a silly beauty ideal for men too, in magazines, in hollywood, pretty much everywhere, but like I said, this thread is not a two way street !!!!

This post has been edited by The Evil Doer on Apr 26 2012, 10:17 AM
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ylangylang
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 10:18 AM
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Sorry Evildoer, but I can't watch your video, I'm using my phone right now (at the library studying) and you see, I don't have an earphone sad.gif Sorry.

I do get the gist of what you're saying, that men are objectified derogatorily as well-however, I still believe that women are more heavily objectified and that's why there's more people speaking out against it. As is in this thread.

This post has been edited by ylangylang on Apr 26 2012, 10:20 AM
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fuzzbucket
Posted: Apr 26 2012, 10:23 AM
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QUOTE (philpot123 @ Apr 26 2012, 03:00 PM)

Is it? Is it really the men? Which men? All men? Because I know I don't find "enhancements" attractive. You might as well go fondle a balloon, or maybe a rock. I'm not sure who's perpetuating this fake ideal, but it's certainly none of the men I know.

No - I know. It is the men (not all men, of course, the manipulators) who work in advertising; the men who ogle women in Playboy and Hustler which leaves their women feeling inadequate. It's subtle. But it isn't something that women ever do - feel that balloon jobs are an improvement for THEM. You'll never find a woman who wants silicone boobs for herself (well VERY occasionally one who was totally flat and felt inferior to her friends.) Most will have it done to "please" a man. And you see women in the media doing it, and men thinking how great they look and... and models are advised to, and if that's what you have to do to be a beautiful MODEL, then that's what makes you BEAUTIFUL, isn't it. It furthers careers, too...

Invidious, and poor men buy into it unwittingly - they look at Jordan (apologies if she is unknown to people but she is - well siliconically endowed xd.png)... and think they want to get their hands on that - and before you know it their women see their eyes bulge... and feel less than Jordan...

Men could help a lot by taking the time to convincingly reassure women that they love their appearance - but it is hard to convince them, when they see all these idealise airbrushed ads and the rest.

This post has been edited by fuzzbucket on Apr 26 2012, 10:24 AM
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Posted: Apr 26 2012, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE (fuzzbucket @ Apr 26 2012, 11:23 AM)
Men could help a lot by taking the time to convincingly reassure women that they love their appearance - but it is hard to convince them, when they see all these idealise airbrushed ads and the rest.

Oh, it's not just airbrushes any more...I've heard somewhere that nowadays they just take a celeb's face and attack it into the body of a model...
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