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> Sexism
Skypool
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 05:52 PM
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What are your thoughts about Sexism? Do you detest it or are you neutral to it?

Sexism According to Wikipedia: Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is the application of the belief or attitude that there are characteristics implicit to one's gender that indirectly affect one's abilities in unrelated areas. It is a form of discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, with such attitudes being based on beliefs in traditional stereotypes of gender roles. The term sexism is most often used in relation with discrimination against women, within the context of patriarchy.

Sexism involves hatred of, or prejudice towards a gender as a whole or the blind application of gender stereotypes. Sexism is often associated with gender-supremacy arguments.



This post has been edited by Skypool on Aug 30 2011, 06:09 PM
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SPQR
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 07:57 PM
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Well, I'm actually kind of neutral. I sometimes laugh at sexist jokes, because some of them are actually pretty funny, and I don't try to 'prove myself to the guys' all the time. I recognise that there are some things that they are better at. Guys and girls should be respected and celebrated for their differences, not lumped together. I also have no objection to terms like 'policeman' and 'postman' and 'fireman', and do not want to see them replaced with 'police officer' and 'post officer' and 'firefighter'. But extreme sexism is not ok, of course.

This post has been edited by SPQR on Aug 30 2011, 07:58 PM
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Princess Artemis
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:07 PM
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Just curious if you object to the terms policewoman, postwoman, and firewoman? I don't personally have a problem with policeman if the person is, y'know, a man, as women tend not to want to be called men.

Alternatively, if policewomen, firewomen, or postwomen were the generally accepted gender-neutral terms, how would you feel about it?
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Pink
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (Princess Artemis @ Aug 30 2011, 08:07 PM)
Alternatively, if policewomen, firewomen, or postwomen were the generally accepted gender-neutral terms, how would you feel about it?

I'm fairly calm when it comes to sexism. I'm not get up in arms about every single comment, but if someone is being a sexist jerk...

But yes, this would be hilarious. xd.png
I can imagine the fun I could have with this... biggrin.gif
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SPQR
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:15 PM
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I have no objection to it. If clarification is needed, by all means call her a policewoman. I sometimes do. But I mostly use the term 'policeman' for everyone, man or woman. 'Man', in my eyes, can be a gender-neutral term. MANkind. HuMAN. Heck, even woMAN. So why not policeman?
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Princess Artemis
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:22 PM
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So you're cool with it if policewoman becomes a gender neutral term to describe all persons in the police force?

That's what I'm going to do, call all persons in the police 'policewomen'. Those who are not women shouldn't mind being called women. It'll be fun, like Pink said : )

Just a note: Woman is not the same word as man, and quite obviously neither is mankind or human, so I'm not sure how man can be considered gender neutral across all usages in that way. Is male gender neutral because female contains it?

This post has been edited by Princess Artemis on Aug 30 2011, 08:26 PM
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SPQR
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE (Princess Artemis @ Aug 30 2011, 09:22 PM)
So you're cool with it if policewoman becomes a gender neutral term to describe all persons in the police force?

That's what I'm going to do, call all persons in the police 'policewomen'. Those who are not women shouldn't mind being called women. It'll be fun, like Pink said : )

Just a note: Woman is not the same word as man, and quite obviously neither is mankind or human, so I'm not sure how man can be considered gender neutral across all usages in that way. Is male gender neutral because female contains it?

Me? Uh, not really. I'd rather it just stay 'policemen'. Nice and traditional.

Of course they're not the same words. They just contain the word 'man'.
But 'man' in the male sense and 'man' in the human sense are two different things in my eyes. "He is a man", vs "I love all of mankind".
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Princess Artemis
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (SPQR @ Aug 30 2011, 05:31 PM)
Me? Uh, not really. I'd rather it just stay 'policemen'. Nice and traditional.

Why are you not OK with it? Just because it's different? Or because you don't like the idea of men being called women?

QUOTE
Of course they're not the same words. They just contain the word 'man'.
But 'man' in the male sense and 'man' in the human sense are two different things in my eyes. "He is a man", vs "I love all of mankind".


Containing the word does not make the word it contains gender neutral. Compare male and female. Now I do know that 'man' can be used in a very general sense but it has been falling out of usage for years. Mostly because it's ridiculous to call persons who are not men men, which is why human has largely replaced it.

Point of order: The plural of human is not humen, so it is not derived from the word man and should be stricken from your example.
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AngelKitty
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:46 PM
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If you ever want me to despise you, be sexist. :P

I don't have problems with gender-specific terms like "policewoman" and "fireman." They're not really sexist, they're just descriptors. Sexist jokes can be funny at times, too, depending on the joke (rape/domestic abuse jokes aren't cool). However, true sexism makes me froth.
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Aderik
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:47 PM
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The term sexism is most often used in relation with discrimination against women, within the context of patriarchy.

This is the only part of the definition of sexism that I dislike. With every side there is two coins. Sure patriarchy is male dominate but then there is a matriarchy and you see as many of those in history (not popular history but it's there).

Discrimination vs sexual roles is far less prevalent in modern culture than people think. There is also a big difference between making sexist jokes and actually holding a sexist belief.

There are also those who use sexism as an excuse. Ie, 'it's not right to hit a lady', but it seems perfectly fine for that lady to hit whomever she wants.

And trust me. Those ladies hit hard :/

This post has been edited by Aderik on Aug 30 2011, 08:48 PM
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SPQR
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (Princess Artemis @ Aug 30 2011, 09:42 PM)
Why are you not OK with it? Just because it's different? Or because you don't like the idea of men being called women?



Containing the word does not make the word it contains gender neutral. Compare male and female. Now I do know that 'man' can be used in a very general sense but it has been falling out of usage for years. Mostly because it's ridiculous to call persons who are not men men, which is why human has largely replaced it.

Point of order: The plural of human is not humen, so it is not derived from the word man and should be stricken from your example.

1. I just like things to be traditional. Personal preference.

2. I know that. Never said that it did that. But look what's being done these days with 'mankind'. Starting to be replaced with 'humankind'. And why? Because people are starting to say that 'man' in that sense means 'one of the male gender'. And I don't. I think it means both men and women. It's old-fashioned, but, as I said, I like it that way.
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Princess Artemis
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE (Aderik @ Aug 30 2011, 05:47 PM)
The term sexism is most often used in relation with discrimination against women, within the context of patriarchy.

I think this is accurate in that that is how the word is most often used. That does not mean that sexism can only exist in such a context or in such a way. It surely does exist in other ways, it just most often refers to this particular kind.

QUOTE (SPQR)
1. I just like things to be traditional. Personal preference.


While I have no issue with liking traditional things, I am uncertain why that would mean you would not be OK with other people calling all policemen 'women'.

QUOTE (SPQR)
2. I know that. Never said that it did that. But look what's being done these days with 'mankind'. Starting to be replaced with 'humankind'. And why? Because people are starting to say that 'man' in that sense means 'one of the male gender'. And I don't. I think it means both men and women. It's old-fashioned, but, as I said, I like it that way.


QUOTE (SPQR)
'Man', in my eyes, can be a gender-neutral term. MANkind. HuMAN.


?

Now I really do like getting into word-tangles, but I'm not terribly interested in that one. My main interest in what you had to say was with what presents as an attitude that it is OK to call women men but it is not OK to call men women. Whether or not you actually feel that way, please note that when you do use words like 'policeman' to describe women, it does come across that way to those who do not know you.

This post has been edited by Princess Artemis on Aug 30 2011, 09:02 PM
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RheaZen
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 09:12 PM
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Varying degrees of reaction, from rage-inducing to hilarious.

I for one think that people should chill about a lot of non-issues so that actual sexism problems would get attention.
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Aderik
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 09:12 PM
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Princess Artemis - I disagree simply on the fact that the people 'most often' using it is the media. Men are just as prone to receive sexist views as women. Sexist views can also be done to men by men and to women by women.

A woman telling a woman to stop working during her second trimester (with no real medical or social reason to stop working, simply because she's pregnant) can be viewed as sexism. A girl teasing another girl about having larger breast at a young age is also sexism.

A guy telling the other guy that he can not like the color pink because it's a girl's color (highly common amid teenagers) is also sexism. Telling a guy who is not 'buff' like the other guys is also sexism.

Once you broaden your view of sexism to include all comments, jokes, or stereotypes to include everything involving what should be defined as male and what should be defined as female, you will see a lot of widely accepted practices slip under the cracks, primarily directed towards men.

More examples:
Men shouldn't be in ballet.
Men shouldn't be in gymnastics. <-- was told this personally
Men shouldn't play hopscotch.
Men shouldn't paint their nails.
Men shouldn't wear makeup.
Men shouldn't wear skirts or dresses.
Men should have muscle definition.
Men should be tall.
Men are the ones most often blamed for unplanned pregnancies
Men are the ones who are to work to support a family
Women repeating over and over how all the 'good guys' are taken or gay
Take any joke or facebook likeable page and try to find one about women.
Common myspace and facebook statuses invoke pledges to end sexism. Every reference I've seen is about women.

Sexism, in and of itself, is often seen as only referring to sexism against women. Historical records and modern media support this. Personal experience has supported this view to me.

In order to 'combat' an idea like sexism you have to first understand sexism. Saying it is most often used in relation with discrimination against women promotes the idea that women commit less sexist acts than men do. Thus, that definition's example is sexist is and of itself, which I dislike as it becomes a vicious circle.
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SPQR
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE (Princess Artemis @ Aug 30 2011, 09:53 PM)
My main interest in what you had to say was with what presents as an attitude that it is OK to call women men but it is not OK to call men women. Whether or not you actually feel that way, please note that when you do use words like 'policeman' to describe women, it does come across that way to those who do not know you.

Aha, I see.

Since 'man', in my eyes, can be gender-neutral and 'woman' cannot, I tend to use 'man', except in places where clarification is needed (or sometimes just if the subject is female, depends how I'm feeling, really). It's not calling women men, it's calling women people.
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Princess Artemis
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 09:45 PM
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Aderik, I actually completely agree with you and think it would be better if the word were more often used the way you have stated. That is the actual meaning of the term, so it does refer to these things you have described.

That doesn't mean I don't see, in a very literal and detached way, that it is accurate to describe of the word that it is used most often in the context of patriarchy. That is how it's most often used in the English-speaking world. That doesn't make it right, nor does it make it inherent to the actual meaning of the word. That doesn't mean that's how the word should be most often used.

SPQR, that does make sense from that view, but it is such a small thing to change for a more accurate description, and it makes lots of other people who see 'man' as a gender neutral a symptom of very deep, very subtle sexism of society (not of the individual) happy. They're probably right. Not asking you to change how you say it, as I fully support everyone's right to be, it's just something to think about.
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SPQR
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE (Princess Artemis @ Aug 30 2011, 10:45 PM)
SPQR, that does make sense from that view, but it is such a small thing to change for a more accurate description, and it makes lots of other people who see 'man' as a gender neutral a symptom of very deep, very subtle sexism of society (not of the individual) happy.  They're probably right.  Not asking you to change how you say it, as I fully support everyone's right to be, it's just something to think about.

I get what you're saying. And I'm not asking others to change how they say it either. Just my personal preference, as I like things to be traditional. Especially with smaller things like terms.

This post has been edited by SPQR on Aug 30 2011, 09:57 PM
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Pink
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (AngelKitty @ Aug 30 2011, 08:46 PM)
If you ever want me to despise you, be sexist. tongue.gif

I don't have problems with gender-specific terms like "policewoman" and "fireman." They're not really sexist, they're just descriptors. Sexist jokes can be funny at times, too, depending on the joke (rape/domestic abuse jokes aren't cool). However, true sexism makes me froth.

See, this wouldn't be a problem if you were in the kitchen like you should be.

*is shot'd*

Anyways. There is a great deal of sexism against men as well, but sexism against females is simply more publicized.
Sexism towards men is also often viewed as socially acceptable. A man complaining about say being emotionally abused and molested by a female would be viewed as a total wimp, whereas a female encountering the exact same treatment from a male would be greatly sympathized with and could even get the guy arrested.

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spyro76
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (SPQR @ Aug 30 2011, 09:19 PM)
Since 'man', in my eyes, can be gender-neutral and 'woman' cannot, I tend to use 'man', except in places where clarification is needed (or sometimes just if the subject is female, depends how I'm feeling, really). It's not calling women men, it's calling women people.

Agreed. Just like calling a group "guys" to get their attention. I was raised thinking "guys" are male, but I've heard females use the term to get the attention of other females as well.

Feminism is a really played up issue. I've heard plenty of girls/women complain that they're not treated fairly, that they're not treated the same. 90% of the time this happens it has nothing to do with gender in my personal experience. I've seen it go the other way too with guys saying they're being discriminated against, just because they don't get something they want. To give an example: I've heard plenty of women say that they don't get equal opportunities. Not once have I ever heard a man say that they shouldn't have equal opportunities. I've never seen equality being denied based on gender. I've never seen a man stand up to a woman who complained in such a way and say "you don't deserve to be equal." I've never seen a man deny a woman something on the basis of gender, though I have seen feminists discriminate against men because they believe women to be treated unfairly. I've heard plenty of sexist jokes, but most of them are brought on by someone protesting that the world is sexist, just to annoy the person who started the debate/problem. A RL example: a girl in my English class last year said that women deserve equality, and went into a 10 minute speech about how life is unfair for women. A guy in my class told her that women belong in the kitchen. He doesn't believe that statement for a second, but none of us really wanted to hear her rant and he wanted to get a reaction out of her. If the issue was never brought up the joke would have never been made.

I admit that the feminist movement has/had merit, but it's becoming unnecessary in many cases. The closest relation I can give to this is unions in the US. At one point they were necessary and protected the everyday worker, the typical American. Now they charge dues to people who don't even want to be part of the union, because the union is the only entity with the power to negotiate for a pay raise, etc. depending on the union. The NYS DMV has a lot of employees who are not qualified properly, or they aren't doing their jobs effectively or fairly. I have personal experience with the problems with the DMV, having taken 4 road tests and failed them all. I've been to a local driving school, where they offer a 1 hour "practice road test" course. They told me I should have passed the first time, and I'm onto my 5th test. A friend of my dad's is a lawyer who belongs to a firm which tried to go after the union of the DMV a few years back and because of the union they couldn't root out ineffective and unfair employees. In schools the unions give teachers preference by their number of years of service, not of quality. This is starting to be revised, but up until recently experience was all that mattered. The same went for teachers and for TA's, and everyone else. A new teacher with better and fresher qualifications can't be kept over an older teacher with lesser qualifications because they've been there longer.

That's not to say there aren't legitimate claims in the workplace and other places as well, but the vast majority are just people complaining about something, because that's what people do.
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ShinyTomato
Posted: Aug 30 2011, 10:23 PM
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QUOTE
I've heard plenty of women say that they don't get equal opportunities. Not once have I ever heard a man say that they shouldn't have equal opportunities. I've never seen equality being denied based on gender. I've never seen a man stand up to a woman who complained in such a way and say "you don't deserve to be equal." I've never seen a man deny a woman something on the basis of gender, though I have seen feminists discriminate against men because they believe women to be treated unfairly.


This might just be luck in your case. When I was in high school (which wasn't that long ago) I was the only one in my class who said that a woman was capable of being president. I've heard men say women shouldn't be permitted to carry firearms because they're "too emotional." I've seen women say that women shouldn't have the ability to vote. I've been told multiple times that I shouldn't be out in the field because of my gender.
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