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> Abortion, Sharing Opinions
St. Jimmy
Posted: Apr 21 2012, 06:34 PM
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Just came up with an interesting analogy...

Adoption agencies are a lot like the AP. Tons of people are always waiting in there for eggs. And yet it's usually so full it blocks the cave. But why? Well, everyone's waiting for a rare egg to come along. Now imagine that rare egg is a healthy, "perfect" baby, and all the other eggs are the rest of the kids who don't get adopted.

And that is Jimmy's random thought for the day.
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KageSora
Posted: Apr 21 2012, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE (St. Jimmy @ Apr 21 2012, 06:34 PM)
Just came up with an interesting analogy...

Adoption agencies are a lot like the AP. Tons of people are always waiting in there for eggs. And yet it's usually so full it blocks the cave. But why? Well, everyone's waiting for a rare egg to come along. Now imagine that rare egg is a healthy, "perfect" baby, and all the other eggs are the rest of the kids who don't get adopted.

And that is Jimmy's random thought for the day.

That's a great analogy, I think. It's how I feel, anyway. There are more people wanting to adopt than there are ideal kids in the system--most of those people probably want a cute little baby, not some troubled teen who has a major problem (say, depression, or a mental/physical disability) and is in desperate need of a loving family to help them out with their issues.
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skinst
Posted: Apr 21 2012, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (Kelkelen @ Apr 21 2012, 04:52 PM)
(And skinst, that is the best picture ever for the conversation at hand.)

I've been waiting to use that picture for something. ^^; Is that bad? tongue.gif

Jimmy, great analogy. biggrin.gif
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babybluefire
Posted: Apr 22 2012, 12:16 PM
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I am not surprised at all that a young women would mistake the vaginal opening and the urethra. Well surprised in the fact that it had to hurt like hell. But not in the fact that the accident occurred. Considering young women are often told sex is horrifically painful (to keep them from trying) what else would a young women expect when she inserts a tampon.


My own husband was raised so conservatively christian it was not till after we were married that I found out he thought women urinated out of their vagina's.


When my twin sister first attempted to use a tampon she had no idea what she was doing and inserted the entire tampon with out removing the cardboard applicator. She walked out of the bathroom complaining how uncomfortable it was. She did not actually read the directions. So it has been a running joke for 18 years now "well did you read the directions?"

This post has been edited by babybluefire on Apr 22 2012, 12:17 PM
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Kelkelen
Posted: Apr 22 2012, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (babybluefire @ Apr 22 2012, 01:16 PM)
I am not surprised at all that a young women would mistake the vaginal opening and the urethra. Well surprised in the fact that it had to hurt like hell. But not in the fact that the accident occurred. Considering young women are often told sex is horrifically painful (to keep them from trying) what else would a young women expect when she inserts a tampon.

Yes... but this wasn't about tampons, it was about actually having sex with her husband. I'm *amazed* (in a horrified way) that *neither* of them figured out what the problem was until they went to a doctor!!

ETA: Since we're on the topic of sex ed, what do you (any of the people here) think ought to be included in a proper sex ed program? What would be the best information or teaching methods for promoting reproductive health, preventing unwanted pregnancies, and keeping people from making mistakes like the one mentioned above?

This post has been edited by Kelkelen on Apr 22 2012, 04:44 PM
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KageSora
Posted: Apr 22 2012, 10:11 PM
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  • Basic male and female anatomy--both males and females need to learn the anatomy for both.
  • Basic health and how to tell if something's not quite right--including things like UTIs
  • More serious health conditions
  • How to to self-exams
  • STIs/STDs, the most common ones and how you can contract them and what health complications they cause as well as symptoms so you know when to go to a doctor
  • The less common STIs/STDs
  • Prevention of STIs/STDs
  • What kinds of treatments different STIs/STDs require and if they're curable or not--as well as what sort of life-long effects to expect from incurable stuff
  • The different types of birth control, how they work, what their fail-rates are, and uses besides avoiding pregnancy (like those who are on the pill for medical reasons)
  • Include that abstinence is a choice that will help you avoid pregnancy, but depending on how you define it (since some people think it "doesn't count" if you have anal or oral sex and thus are still "abstaining" from it) it may not protect you from STIs/STDs
  • That before you have sex, you and your partner(s) need to be checked for anything that could be passed along through sex and if a partner refuses then you need to not let them convince you to have sex
  • Why you should use multiple forms of birth control, tied in with the failure rates
  • What pregnancy is, how it happens, and what to expect
  • The health complications that can occur with pregnancy--including the effects of STIs/STDs on pregnancy and birth
  • Birth--what happens, how it happens, what to expect for both the father and the mother
  • The amount of work and money required to raise a child, make them do a child-raising exercise
  • Abortion--how it works, the different types, and the health complications that can occur
  • Adoption--how the system works, what problems it has (since it wouldn't be fair to not mentions problems here if you're covering the problems that arise with abortion and keeping the child), how hard it can be for a mother to give up the child
  • Different forms of sexual contact--oral, anal, vaginal, using your hands on your partner/yourself
  • Covering the topic of sex between men and women, men and men, and women and women, and masturbation
  • Basic safety and things that you should NOT do during sex/masturbation to avoid hurting yourself/your partner(s)


I'm sure I could think of more, but that's what I got so far.
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SockPuppet Strangler
Posted: Apr 22 2012, 10:15 PM
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^ Great list. Off the top of my head, I would also add:
  • How different forms of birth control works. (How does bc function, why you shouldn't use two condoms at once, etc.)
  • Not to have sex until you and your partner are both ready. Don't let anybody force you to do anything you aren't ready for.
  • Rape/sexual harassment - what is rape, how to get help if you are raped, stuff like that.


This post has been edited by SockPuppet Strangler on Apr 22 2012, 10:15 PM
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Shiny Hazard Sign
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 02:48 AM
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Those are all really good things to be covered. But, of course, there are so many people that would froth at the mouth if the schools dared to mention even half of those in the classroom.
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Vhale
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 09:13 AM
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Sadly, a lot of it reflects the culture of shame and silence that is fostered around reproductive issues. As we say on the internets, silence is assent. But the question is, assent to what? A whole lot of ignorance, sadly.

I did see where teen pregnancy is down to its lowest level this past year. People seem to be theorizing it's thanks to more birth control being available and shows like that MTV one that highlights kids with kids. Kinda funny to think MTV (devil's music!) would be instrumental in helping kids realize that maybe getting pregnant is not all glamour and fluff.

Sadly, Wisconsin's Planned Parenthood just cut out doing any abortions by pill (which means early ones) and now only do surgical. So I guess they are trying to limit them by forcing them to be legal in a short window of about 9 weeks.
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And Texas, they are fighting to get to keep their funding.
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One other thing that I only saw intermittently last week, a large group of Catholic nuns got censored by the Vatican for not being anti-abortion/anti-gay enough and supporting the health care reforms.
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fuzzbucket
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE (SockPuppet Strangler @ Apr 23 2012, 03:15 AM)
^ Great list. Off the top of my head, I would also add:
  • How different forms of birth control works. (How does bc function, why you shouldn't use two condoms at once, etc.)
  • Not to have sex until you and your partner are both ready. Don't let anybody force you to do anything you aren't ready for.
  • Rape/sexual harassment - what is rape, how to get help if you are raped, stuff like that.

And I would add relationship education - respect for others and the basic thing that so few don't get - that others DON'T have to want what you want... The WISHES of others and that, I guess.
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Princess Artemis
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (KageSora @ Apr 22 2012, 07:11 PM)

  • Basic male and female anatomy--both males and females need to learn the anatomy for both.
  • Basic health and how to tell if something's not quite right--including things like UTIs
  • More serious health conditions
  • How to to self-exams
  • STIs/STDs, the most common ones and how you can contract them and what health complications they cause as well as symptoms so you know when to go to a doctor
  • Prevention of STIs/STDs
  • What kinds of treatments different STIs/STDs require and if they're curable or not--as well as what sort of life-long effects to expect from incurable stuff
  • The different types of birth control, how they work, what their fail-rates are, and uses besides avoiding pregnancy (like those who are on the pill for medical reasons)
  • Include that abstinence is a choice that will help you avoid pregnancy,
  • That before you have sex, you and your partner(s) need to be checked for anything that could be passed along through sex and if a partner refuses then you need to not let them convince you to have sex
  • Why you should use multiple forms of birth control, tied in with the failure rates
  • What pregnancy is, how it happens, and what to expect
  • The health complications that can occur with pregnancy--including the effects of STIs/STDs on pregnancy and birth
  • Birth--what happens, how it happens, what to expect for both the father and the mother
  • The amount of work and money required to raise a child, make them do a child-raising exercise

QUOTE (Sock)
How different forms of birth control works. (How does bc function, why you shouldn't use two condoms at once, etc.)
Rape/sexual harassment - what is rape, how to get help if you are raped, stuff like that.


All of this is what I did learn in school, some 25 years ago. Seems things have changed, but I'd be surprised if they changed everywhere.

QUOTE (Vhale)
As we say on the internets, silence is assent.


Quite obviously that needs to stop being said, since it's the most outrageous lie I've ever heard.

This post has been edited by Princess Artemis on Apr 23 2012, 01:27 PM
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KageSora
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (Princess Artemis @ Apr 23 2012, 01:25 PM)
All of this is what I did learn in school, some 25 years ago. Seems things have changed, but I'd be surprised if they changed everywhere.

Then you're lucky. Wish I had that!

We covered basics of STIs/STDs, some basic anatomy and pregnancy stuff, but we didn't really learn much of that--probably because our "sex ed" was little more than one unit out of a more general health class that covered nutrition, exercise, drugs, and alcohol as well. IIRC, it was a one-semester class. We really only learned about m/f sex, too, and that was very basic. More like "this is the absolute most basic bit of information on how arousal works in males and females, and this is the most basic bit of information on how sex between a man and a woman works" without much detail... It did cover menstruation, though. That was in... Jr. high I want to say? Wait, or maybe it was high school...? Can't remember which.

I had another class jr. high, where we did have a unit on babies where they made us take care of a robo-baby for a while, but that was basically it. Had some little video about puberty in 5th grade that was little more than the basics of the changes your body goes through without the why or details.

It was... Far from comprehensive... And spread out over quite a few years.

Most of what I know about how sex works and stuff I've learned from the Internet, honestly--so I had to self-educate on most of it. sleep.gif'
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SockPuppet Strangler
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 02:12 PM
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Yeah, I believe my health class (which included sex ed) was overload on generic information about STIs/STDs, some contraceptives (but not how to use contraceptives to protect yourself from STDs or how to use contraceptives - just what they were), and some anatomy (the skeleton and the fact that you have muscle and skin over your skeleton), along with some other diseases such as diabetes.

The most memorable things I got from the class or did in the class were:
-having to shout words like penis and vagina to make sure we were comfortable with saying them
-my teacher's husband had "fast, little swimmers" since she got pregnant after he got a vasectomy or she got her tubes tied, whichever one
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Kelkelen
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE
Not to have sex until you and your partner are both ready. Don't let anybody force you to do anything you aren't ready for.


QUOTE
And I would add relationship education - respect for others and the basic thing that so few don't get - that others DON'T have to want what you want... The WISHES of others and that, I guess.


Right. This ^ is what I feel was missing from my school's sex ed program. I was taught all the same things as Princess Artemis quoted in her post, when I was in high school -- and middle school, too, I think. They must have covered at least some of it in 7th and/or 8th grade, and then again in 10th. (Plus, our health classes always taught the reproductive system, even if it wasn't sex-ed specific -- we still learned every year about how babies are made.) I just wish that they'd taken the time to really emphasize that you shouldn't have sex until you truly know you want to; and that it's a choice for *you,* that you should never feel forced to accommodate the other person, that the best idea is to go at the pace of the 'slower' person in the relationship so that no one ends up hurt; that it's your decision and no one else's what you do with your body, when, and with whom. (That all seems so self-evident now, but man, when you're in high school and people are pushing for sex all over the place, and peer pressure is high, and you really want approval...? Yeah. It would have been really nice to just hear a few adults say that sure, one day sooner or later you'll want sex, and you'll *know* that you really want to have it, and to share it with a certain person; but until that time comes, you just plain don't have to, and no one should expect you to, as if it's owed to them under certain situations. Period.)

QUOTE
  Abortion--how it works, the different types, and the health complications that can occur
    Adoption--how the system works, what problems it has (since it wouldn't be fair to not mentions problems here if you're covering the problems that arise with abortion and keeping the child), how hard it can be for a mother to give up the child
    Different forms of sexual contact--oral, anal, vaginal, using your hands on your partner/yourself
    Covering the topic of sex between men and women, men and men, and women and women, and masturbation
    Basic safety and things that you should NOT do during sex/masturbation to avoid hurting yourself/your partner(s)


Those things, our sex ed course didn't cover, but I do think I understand why not. Going into abortion in depth wouldn't necessarily be sex ed any more... and it's so controversial, and people's views so polarized, that I can imagine it being a scene of much classroom drama; there are people who know about it, but may feel strongly upset by talking about it or having to see pictures or hear others discuss it, either because they oppose it or because they've had one themselves, plus others might be very judgmental about it in the classroom (also hard for anyone who's actually had one). Adoption, I think gets covered more in home ec/family and consumer sciences, the usual venue for the child care/responsibility lessons, as well.

As for forms of sexual contact, I don't think a course should go into too much depth, but I *do* think it would be sensible to note that there are more erogenous zones of the body than just the genitals! That's yet another subject where, if you don't quite understand what sex is, yet, you can end up doing things you don't actually want to do, because you didn't realize just how sexual they would feel; and conversely, you might end up having full sexual intercourse when you *would* have been content to try and experience those sensations some other way, without the whole naked-genital-penetration thing. Explaining clinically what masturbation is, and what orgasms are, would also be good. I recall being taught about ejaculation, but not orgasm specifically.

Basic safety just sounds sensible, doesn't it!?
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Princess Artemis
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 02:16 PM
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My class was in high school, and it was called 'health', semester long, though there were scattered bits of education before that. The puberty stuff came too late to be of any use to me. The class covered other things, but it was mostly reproductive health. The teacher was really thorough; I'm sure that made a difference. We had the carrying flour babies around thing too. I'm sure I supplemented some of this with my own learning along the way; for instance, it only takes a curious 5-year-old a couple of baths to figure out some stuff on her own.

There isn't anything wrong with self-education, you know. You know where I learned about black holes, space-time, DNA, Penrose tiles, quasicrystals? Books and magazines in elementary school. School ought to inform about basic stuff and people ought to take some initiative to educate themselves. We're humans, not sheep.

QUOTE (Kelkelen)
As for forms of sexual contact, I don't think a course should go into too much depth, but I *do* think it would be sensible to note that there are more erogenous zones of the body than just the genitals! That's yet another subject where, if you don't quite understand what sex is, yet, you can end up doing things you don't actually want to do, because you didn't realize just how sexual they would feel; and conversely, you might end up having full sexual intercourse when you *would* have been content to try and experience those sensations some other way, without the whole naked-genital-penetration thing. Explaining clinically what masturbation is, and what orgasms are, would also be good. I recall being taught about ejaculation, but not orgasm specifically.


More info on this would very likely have been very useful in high school for a lot of people for just that reason.

This post has been edited by Princess Artemis on Apr 23 2012, 02:21 PM
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KageSora
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (SockPuppet Strangler @ Apr 23 2012, 02:12 PM)
-having to shout words like penis and vagina to make sure we were comfortable with saying them

Oh yeah, we did that, too. We'd actually play the penis game in class. >_>

Also, we had things like "Menstrual Monday" to get us accustomed to it.

QUOTE (Kelkelen @ Apr 23 2012, 02:13 PM)
Those things, our sex ed course didn't cover, but I do think I understand why not.  Going into abortion in depth wouldn't necessarily be sex ed any more... and it's so controversial, and people's views so polarized, that I can imagine it being a scene of much classroom drama; there are people who know about it, but may feel strongly upset by talking about it or having to see pictures or hear others discuss it, either because they oppose it or because they've had one themselves, plus others might be very judgmental about it in the classroom (also hard for anyone who's actually had one).  Adoption, I think gets covered more in home ec/family and consumer sciences, the usual venue for the child care/responsibility lessons, as well. 

As for forms of sexual contact, I don't think a course should go into too much depth, but I *do* think it would be sensible to note that there are more erogenous zones of the body than just the genitals!  That's yet another subject where, if you don't quite understand what sex is, yet, you can end up doing things you don't actually want to do, because you didn't realize just how sexual they would feel; and conversely, you might end up having full sexual intercourse when you *would* have been content to try and experience those sensations some other way, without the whole naked-genital-penetration thing.  Explaining clinically what masturbation is, and what orgasms are, would also be good.  I recall being taught about ejaculation, but not orgasm specifically. 

Basic safety just sounds sensible, doesn't it!?

It doesn't need to be in-depth, but at least it should be given some coverage--with the option to leave the room if you don't think it's a subject you can rationally handle. I'm in a human development class right now (which is useless for me, though some of the others have such wildly inaccurate ideas about sex and relationships it's good that it's pretty basic...), and the teacher flat-out said "If something makes you too uncomfortable, just let me know and leave the room", though she encourages us to remain in the room to learn things we don't know even if we don't like them--but she won't force a student to sit through a lesson that makes them very uncomfortable.

So, if you don't like abortion, for example, you could opt out of that part, maybe get an alternate assignment or something.

We never really covered adoption in our home ec classes around here--it'd be nice if we did!


And yeah, I get that it shouldn't be in-depth exactly, but like my teacher now is like "So, the most commonly thought of form of sex is penile-vaginal. However, there is also penile-anal, and oral-genital sex, more commonly known as anal and oral sex respectively." We didn't get graphic, like "how to give good oral sex" or "best position for anal sex" or something like that, but they were mentioned and the teacher enforced that they are acceptable forms of sexual contact providing that both partners are alright with such sexual contact. We've also covered that breasts (especially for females) can be used in sexual contact for increased pleasure, and that individuals may have certain parts of their body they enjoy being touched in different ways in a sexual setting. Nothing too detailed, but at least it was addressed and not just "THERE IS NO SEX BESIDES A MAN AND A WOMAN AND HE PUTS HIS PENIS IN HER VAGINA."

QUOTE (Princess Artemis @ Apr 23 2012, 02:16 PM)
There isn't anything wrong with self-education, you know.  You know where I learned about black holes, space-time, DNA, Penrose tiles, quasicrystals?  Books and magazines in elementary school.  School ought to inform about basic stuff and people ought to take some initiative to educate themselves.  We're humans, not sheep.

Oh, I know there's nothing wrong with it. But there's a difference between presenting a wide range of basic information that gives enough to be useful and educational to be the starting point from which they go and find more information and presenting a narrow range of basic information that really doesn't do anything to properly inform people of the risks associated with certain behaviors and then sending them out to learn everything else on their own.

This post has been edited by KageSora on Apr 23 2012, 02:40 PM
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Kelkelen
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (KageSora @ Apr 23 2012, 03:20 PM)
And yeah, I get that it shouldn't be in-depth exactly, but like my teacher now is like "So, the most commonly thought of form of sex is penile-vaginal. However, there is also penile-anal, and oral-genital sex, more commonly known as anal and oral sex respectively." We didn't get graphic, like "how to give good oral sex" or "best position for anal sex" or something like that, but they were mentioned and the teacher enforced that they are acceptable forms of sexual contact providing that both partners are alright with such sexual contact. We've also covered that breasts (especially for females) can be used in sexual contact for increased pleasure, and that individuals may have certain parts of their body they enjoy being touched in different ways in a sexual setting. Nothing too detailed, but at least it was addressed and not just "THERE IS NO SEX BESIDES A MAN AND A WOMAN AND HE PUTS HIS PENIS IN HER VAGINA."

Yes! Exactly! I mean, my school's class wasn't like "there is no sex only this one kind and never do it ever," obviously. It tried to be very informative. But I really, really wish it had covered exactly what it sounds like your teacher did, here. It's not anything that people won't gather somewhat from movies/magazines/TV/conversations/etc., but I'd rather they get it straight, and in a way that they can piece it all together, without it feeling covert or shameful or like you don't quite know what it all means. It took me a few *years* to put together that 'blow job' and 'oral sex' meant the same thing (for a guy, anyways); I was very confused as to whether there was a lot of actual blowing involved.

I think it's very sensible, also, to stress that it's okay to like what you like, and dislike what you dislike; that just like in all areas of life, and physical sensation, every individual will have their own preferences. I think it's a real eye-opener for a lot of gay youth, for example, to realize that not all gay couples even have anal sex; that two people in a relationship can find whatever works best for them, and that's okay, whatever that is.

I agree, too -- if students are permitted to leave the room if they're uncomfortable or upset, then I think a basic covering of abortion would be good. What each type is, what literally happens, what stages of development the fetus is at, how different women have reacted afterwards; maybe being able to read first-person accounts that cover a range of reactions, to get a better picture of how it *might* affect someone. How to make sure you get the proper care you need, if you have one.
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Princess Artemis
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 04:03 PM
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I think, rather than teaching students that it's OK to like what they like and not what they don't, they should spend a bit less time convincing students to swallow everything adults say. Teaching students to think will let them figure stuff like that out for themselves if their parents haven't passed that nugget of wisdom on, and equips them to be much better functional adults.
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fuzzbucket
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 04:06 PM
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One other thing that occurs to me.

"If you loved me, you would" is the best reason NOT to have sex with whoever comes out with that line. mad.gif.

I am actually not too happy about people being able to opt out of sex ed. Self education can lead to some shocking misconceptions. (You can't get pregnant during your period. That one shows up on a few sites that are otherwise reliable... You can't get pregnant if you do it standing up. Douching with coke will prevent pregnancy (actually douching will help the sperm get up there, I think...) You can't get pregnant the first time. A boy's balls will explode if he doesn't have sex.. (I like that one... biggrin.gif)

Abortion is a tricky one; they NEED to know it IS an option, even if they aren't happy with it - and that it will NOT stunt your for life, make you insane or leave you sterile.... smile.gif Because however they feel NOW, some day that may be the ONE piece of info they REALLY need to remember.

They MUST get ALL the info. It may be literally life saving later.

This post has been edited by fuzzbucket on Apr 23 2012, 04:07 PM
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Kelkelen
Posted: Apr 23 2012, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (Princess Artemis @ Apr 23 2012, 05:03 PM)
I think, rather than teaching students that it's OK to like what they like and not what they don't, they should spend a bit less time convincing students to swallow everything adults say.  Teaching students to think will let them figure stuff like that out for themselves if their parents haven't passed that nugget of wisdom on, and equips them to be much better functional adults.

That's pretty much what I mean, though. Tell them that they ought to listen to and trust *themselves* -- not what they see or read or what random adults or their peers or even their significant others tell them.

I guess I was operating under the assumption that most teens already know that abortion exists and is an option, but I should not assume. ETA: I don't think they should be able to opt out of the class. I think they should be able to step out of the room if one or two classes are too upsetting for them, environment-wise. They should still have to read and be tested on the same course material.

And fuzzbucket, those 'urban legends'... wow. Just... WOW. >_<

This post has been edited by Kelkelen on Apr 23 2012, 04:19 PM
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